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Thread: LEO departments and "the chart"

  1. #61
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    What'd I miss with all these edited posts?

  2. #62
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    Rob_S

    Here you go.

    Rock River no good huh? Well out of the 25 or so I have Ive had no trouble. And why do you hate RRA? They have excellent customer support and must be doing something right as they are just now shipping out March 09 orders, and the DEA uses them every single day. They are also the only co. that passed the hell test before the DEA got them. Ive never saw a place wher no matter what you post, someone pops up and says"I hate that company" Why do you hate it. Is it the Wilson barrels? some of the best lpk's on the market? You said you hated the lower, why is that? whats the diff between it and the BC? Does it go boom when you fire it? Its just a receiver, that a machine shop made who makes many different others, and I believe BM is one of them not sure. This is why I got my 07 and am buying a CNC for me and some friends to make our own and just keep. If you have a problem with RRA I assure you they will fix it. Can you post a pic of it and your fav lower and show me the diff? NO!
    PE. To each his own. My bone stock RRA has 3 trophies on my mantle, and thats sayin alot, since I have reviewed just about every lower out there. LPK goes in like butter, 2 stg trigger is one of the best, and they sale more than you could ever imagine. If people would stop bad mouthing companies maybe they would sponsor the site.And maybe people will be happy when all the AR's start coming from China, and you have no warranty like the lifetime one RRA offers. And if you hate the lower that bad looks like you would sale it to me for a very cheap price since it sucks. $50 sound good?
    I guess Biased people are everywhere. As long as I have my trophies, and my RRA while protecting the rest of America, Now RRA sucks? Hmm who next. BCM? Noveske? Must be a diff in the metal they use I guess. Do you own RRA,and BCM, Colt, Noveske, POF, Sabre, Colt, DD? I do Oh NM I see BCM is the biggest sponsor Understood now. But no RRA? but they do on the largest AR15 website AR15.com. Hmmmmm. Who machines RRA? do ya know
    Those are the two I was able to capture from Subscription emails.

    He claims to work for a government agency but I have some doubts due to grammar and overall attitude.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwelz View Post
    Rob_S

    ...He claims to work for a government agency but I have some doubts due to grammar and overall attitude.
    Right, no one working for a government agency ever had an attitude!!!

    Relax, just some humor.

    I do believe there is a lot of good information on this forum, but I also believe there is a heavy bias here.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    When I went to the range for my firearms instructor recert this year they showed us several broken bolts. Three were Colt "HP and MPI" tested. There were also several others from manufacturers that test their bolts. We have seen numerous makes and models fail to make it through a five day class. There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason as to which ones make it and which ones don't. I have seen Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster and Rock River make it through the class when others from the same manufacturers did not. A gun with good quality parts is a start, but no guarantee.

    Again, I have seen guns with "substandard" parts succeed when "better quality" ones have failed.
    There is indeed rhyme and reason as to what fails and why. There are trends that have emerged over time and have been documented here and elsewhere.

    You're correct in that known-good guns can have issues, and good-as guns can perform. The rub is the frequency and the consistency with which they will do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I do believe there is a lot of good information on this forum, but I also believe there is a heavy bias here.
    There is indeed bias... It's bias toward highest standards. Even in that bias, though, most will give credit where credit is due when something exceeds expectations that usually doesn't.
    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skintop911 View Post
    You're correct in that known-good guns can have issues, and good-as guns can perform. The rub is the frequency and the consistency with which they will do so...
    In all the years I have been doing this I have not seen a pattern in the frequency of failures that I can point to and say one of the "big" manufacturers is definitively better than the other. Admittedly things were much simpler when I started repairing M-16A1s for the Army in 1973. Everything was mil-spec.

    I worked depot maintenance for 3 years, but it still does not compare to the variety and selection we are faced with today. The majority of products today are much better than in the late 70's when you had the original EA receivers.

    I have also carried one on duty for the last 20 years and been a rifle instructor for 24 years.

    There is a lot of junk out there to stay away from, but when you are talking BM v RR v Colt v Noveske v DPMS v... I cannot say that in my mind there is a clear cut winner. A friend had to send his brand new Noveske SBR back for repair and another had to send a barrel back to Colt because the chamber was not reamed properly. We did not finish ream it because we did not want to cut through the chrome lined bore. Colt cut through and did not refinish the bore. I would have thought they would have replace the barrel. The owner did not want to deal with it anymore and was just happy his rifle was functioning and not setting the projectile back in the casing when he tried to chamber a round. The list can go on and on as I am certain yours can too.

    Admittedly I do not have any experience with BCM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by newguy View Post
    this whole site eems to be stuck on bcg,s I have a friend on swat tasc he has a BM he loves it ,his life depends on it and others do to. I dont care what kind of BCG you have and mpi doesnt guarantee you cant have a problem with it you will never have a home scenerio where you will shoot enough rounds to worry about it before swat arives if you want a dependable homedefence gun it seems to me you would test several mags for reliability.funtion test the gun run several clips thru it clean it and keep it reay .If you play RAMBO every weekend just to say its a fighting gun. chances are you may have a problem with it when you need it
    You're right.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    There is a lot of junk out there to stay away from, but when you are talking BM v RR v Colt v Noveske v DPMS v... I cannot say that in my mind there is a clear cut winner. A friend had to send his brand new Noveske SBR back for repair and another had to send a barrel back to Colt because the chamber was not reamed properly. We did not finish ream it because we did not want to cut through the chrome lined bore. Colt cut through and did not refinish the bore. I would have thought they would have replace the barrel. The owner did not want to deal with it anymore and was just happy his rifle was functioning and not setting the projectile back in the casing when he tried to chamber a round. The list can go on and on as I am certain yours can too. Admittedly I do not have any experience with BCM.
    Samples of one abound, and we could find examples of most failures in all manufacturers given reasonable effort. As I noted previously though, it's about frequency and consistency of problem or performance.

    When I contemplate the issue, I think back to several bactches, 20-50 guns each, of hobby guns purchased for LE service by agencies. Each batch had about a quarter to a third of that batch demonstrate a problem of some sort requiring significant armorer maintenance, return to the manufacturer, or on-site repair by the manufacturer.

    Other agencies using those guns report similar experiences either initially (quantity/ratios vary), or during the lifecycle of their guns.

    Others wisely purchased known-good guns, and enjoy low rejection and failure rates. They do have them from time to time, but they are the exception not the rule.

    During some patrol rifle classes attended by some M4C members, we identified the guns on the line by brand and configuration, then predicted failures. Each met expectations. During diagnostics on some, the usual problems were found (consistency). Some guns could be helped. Others had to go home.

    You can read AARs from others in training that do, and see, the same.

    There are differences in brands and what you can expect from them. Not all users will produce all differences, but they exist nonetheless. The guy that shoots a box or two a month or plays SOCOM range ninja dress-up, probably won't know the difference between what works and what doesn't. Same for the LE agency or officer that carries guns, but doesn't shoot them.

    Credit will be given when it's due. It's just not due very much to some, or is only due in a certain context.

    The difference between a known-good and a good-as can be as little as several extra value meals, and rarely more than 2-3 nice dinners out. That adds up to a few dollars a year over the lifecycle of the gun.
    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skintop911 View Post
    S...As I noted previously though, it's about frequency and consistency of problem or performance...
    As I noted, based on my experience, I cannot attribute neither the consistency nor frequency to a given manufacturer. As we have both noted, both good and bad examples can be provided all day long. Shipments of guns from "the best" manufacturers having to be returned by agencies due to problems...

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not trying to change yours merely state mine based on my personal experience. Again, I have learned a lot on this site.

    Thanks.

    Doug

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    As I noted, based on my experience, I cannot attribute neither the consistency nor frequency to a given manufacturer. As we have both noted, both good and bad examples can be provided all day long. Shipments of guns from "the best" manufacturers having to be returned by agencies due to problems...

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not trying to change yours merely state mine based on my personal experience. Again, I have learned a lot on this site.

    Thanks.

    Doug
    are you just "thinking out loud?" cause your experiences mean nothing to anyone here. i dont say that to be insulting, but nobody knows who the **** you are, and your "experiences" contradict all of ours- which generally mirror each other.
    Last edited by bkb0000; 02-08-10 at 16:04.

  10. #70
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    I would hate to see when you are trying to be insulting.

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