Nightforce Dilema

[decodeddiesel]

So I am building up a precision gun for an upcoming Magpul Dynamics Precision Rifle class and I am really stuck on making an optics decision. I am debating between a Leupold MK4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 with M2 knobs and Illuminated TMR reticle (Mil based), and a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 with the NP-1R reticle (MOA Based). The class will be limited to approx 500 yards, but a number of my co-workers have memberships at the Colorado Rifle Club and I have a standing invitation to go with them whenever I wish. This means 1000 yard capability is not out of the picture.

Why do I keep coming back to wanting a Nightforce? I am about 70% convinced I am going to get the 3.5-15x50 with the NP-1R reticle, but I have made no final decision yet. Well here’s a pros and cons list I just came up with.

Nightforce Pros:

• MOA knobs with an MOA reticle*. Having your reticle and your adjustments speak the same language is a big plus from everything I have read.
  
• Tube Thickness and Build Quality: NF is incredibly durable, and their warranty is second to none.
  
• Unparalled optical quality. This has been stated and restated by guys who spend a lot of time looking through $3000+ scopes. I know Lowlight from the Hide owns a S&B, Hensoldt, Leupold, etc, and prefers the Nightforce.
  
• Mirage reduction. Once again a function of optical quality.
• Light transmission. Ditto.
  
• 50mm Objective Lens*: Lets face it, chicks dig big objective lenses.
  
• Longer Eye Relief. Better for unconventional positions (Magpul Dynamics), less chance of scope face.
  
• Larger Exit Pupil. Once again better for unconventional positions.
  
• Reticle Pattern allows for more accurate hold over: given the finer graduations and MOA base.
  
• Current SOCOM issue: SOCOM has ditched the Leupolds for NF optics.
  
• Excellent resale value. Most NF optics in good condition only loose about 7% of their retail value when sold second hand. Most Leupolds loose 12%-15% of their value.

Nightforce Cons (compared to Leupold LR/T):

• Cost: 40% more expensive than Leupold LR/T.
  
• 1/4MOA adjustments: This means I will have to count the total turns to return to zero which will be tough in the class. Leupold has 1/2MOA or 1 MOA adjustments which means I can get out to 1000 yards with a single turn on the Leupold. NF would be multiple turns. In fact, to get out to 500 will be just over one full revolution. (NOTE: NF is supposed to be releasing a 20MOA per turn elevation knob soon. Rumor is they will retrofit the 10 MOA per turn scopes for a nominal fee.)
  
• No Zero Stop, unless I want to spend an additional $180. Leupold has a zero stop.
  
• No Bullet Drop Compensator on the Knobs. Not too sure just how useful these really are on the Leupold since they are calibrated in meters, and they would not be 100% accurate to the load out of my specific gun. I have read NF offers these for their guns (M118LR which is a 175gr SMK .308 out of a 18” barrel ala M3X), but I am not seeing it for sale anywhere.
  
• Weight: 30oz for the NF vs 19oz for the Leupold.
  
• 50mm objective lens*: This will make it a higher mount which could cause cheek weld issues if I do not use an adjustable stock. This is not really a con per say, but it will call for more careful setup of the rifle.
  
• MOA Reticle*: This can be a con since nearly all of the milling calculators use mils. More than likely they will use mils in the class. I will have to work out a fast way to subtense a target in MOA and convert it to range in yards.

I am a firm believer in buy once, cry once. If the Nightforce is the right tool for the job then so be it. I am prepared to sell a few thing to help make up the difference in price so I am not that worried about it.

Let me know what you guys think. I know if I post this on The Hide it will become a NF circle jerk and I'm not looking for that. I am hoping for some objectivity in helping me weigh out the pros and cons of one scope to the other.

Thanks!

[USMC03]

What base gun are you putting it on Brother?

[decodeddiesel]

Don't know yet. It will be a 308, either a 20" bolt or a 20" gas...

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Mmm, gas gun back in the picture? I'm leaning towards a 3-15 scope to eventually run on a .308 bolt gun, but I'll use my JP upper for the class as long as I can find a load that will shoot MOA.

[javentre]

I'm a big fan of NF, IMO Leupold does not match their quality or repeatability. In the past, I never considered Leupold for Mil/Mil setups because their Mil knobs where .05 MRAD, which is too fine. NF is .1 MRAD. At SHOT, they apparently released an M5 (??) knob which has .1 MRAD adjustments.

It's quite helpful if you and your shooting partner speak the same language (mil/mil or moa/moa), so calling shot corrections and sharing data is easier. I have standardized on mil/mil setups, far more people have reticles in mils than moa. Over the years I've had 8+ NF scopes, I drifted away and tried other top tier brands, but always come back to NF as the best bang for the buck.

If you're shooting long distance (1000Y), BDC knobs are of very limited value. Things like barometric pressure and temperature make a big difference in your dope, you're going to need a few drop charts, not something engraved on your knob for one specific condition. For distance shooting, I encourage you to research Density Altitude. Personally, I use a Brunton ADC Pro to get my environmental data. If you still have to have a BDC, Kenton Industries will engrave one for you.

If you think you're going to be shooting UKD, engaging multiple targets, shooting by using reticle holds, and ranging in hot conditions (mirage), I would suggest you look at a Front Focal model. I would highly encourage you to get the 3.5-15x50mm F1 scope, it is a front focal plane scope, has a zero stop, and comes with rings. Yes, it's more expensive. If there was a 5.5-22 F1 model out, I would sell my SFP scopes (second focal plane) and trade up.

[decodeddiesel]

I'm a big fan of NF, IMO Leupold does not match their quality or repeatability.

I have heard this a lot, especially on the Hide. I would like to find somewhere local that has both the Leupold and NF in stock so I can see these differences for myself. Obviously there would be no way for me to quantize any sort of adjustment error in either scope, but the build quality and image quality should be evident.

It's quite helpful if you and your shooting partner speak the same language (mil/mil or moa/moa), so calling shot corrections and sharing data is easier. I have standardized on mil/mil setups, far more people have reticles in mils than moa.

Being an engineer and a full time engineering student I can appreciate the merits of the milliradian. Trust me, I live and breath radians, sine based functions, and partial differential equations. I am probably a lot more comfortable with the radian based on this than most, and remember that "mils" in Artillery land are based on radians. 6400 mils in a circle. Not quite as accurate as 2 pie radians, but close. I do wish that NF offered radian based adjustments in their sub-1500 scopes. Sadly in order to step up to radians I would have to pony up at least another $200. I may do this, but MOA to MOA doesn't bother me much. In fact in researching more I think that this is a better setup for most Americans since we have an intrinsic understanding of the english system of measurement. For example if I see an object, and being a good old red blooded American, I have a pretty good idea right away how big it is in inches. This means I can do the subtense for an MOA very quickly in my head. (Size of target in inches x 100) / Minutes in scope) *.95 = range to target.

If you're shooting long distance (1000Y), BDC knobs are of very limited value. Things like barometric pressure and temperature make a big difference in your dope, you're going to need a few drop charts, not something engraved on your knob for one specific condition. For distance shooting, I encourage you to research Density Altitude. Personally, I use a Brunton ADC Pro to get my environmental data. If you still have to have a BDC, Kenton Industries will engrave one for you.

Being an old Fire Direction Center Chief for a Field Artillery unit before I went to the Infantry I know a thing or two about met data. We used air density, density altitude, site, wind, drift, rotation of the earth, etc. We did all of this by hand using slide rulers, calculus, and trigonometry. Trust me, if you think it's hard quickly calculating a firing solution for a 175gr projectile traveling at 2600 fps 1000 yards at a target you can see, try launching a 35 pound projectile 10,000 yards at 1000 fps, with someone else watching it come down then trying to tell you where it hit.

Anyhow you're right, BDC is kind of worthless (I mentioned this in my first post). I plan to have comprehensive ballistic charts and range cards printed up and proofed prior to me class. Also I have an iPod Touch with Bullet Flight if I get really lost, LOL.

If you think you're going to be shooting UKD, engaging multiple targets, shooting by using reticle holds, and ranging in hot conditions (mirage), I would suggest you look at a Front Focal model. I would highly encourage you to get the 3.5-15x50mm F1 scope, it is a front focal plane scope, has a zero stop, and comes with rings. Yes, it's more expensive. If there was a 5.5-22 F1 model out, I would sell my SFP scopes (second focal plane) and trade up.

I have tried FFP scopes and I found I just can't stand them. I like the same sight picture everytime and I just can't abide with the FFP scopes. I know the benefits, and maybe I need to learn a hard lesson in this class about using them, but I just prefer a SFP.

Furthermore when we're talking about the NF with all of the features you mention we're now dealing with a $2200 scope. This is more than 2x the price of the Leupold, and 68% more expensive than the NF I am interested in. I may be able to swing a $1400 scope, but a $2200 scope is simply beyond my price range.

[javentre]

I have heard this a lot, especially on the Hide.

All of my grips revolve around my past experience with Leupold, not things I've read. I've been through a few Leupolds 4.5-14 and 6.5-20 and I was generally unsatisfied with things like backlash (on the parallax knob) and mushy turrets. Years ago, I bought the NF after messing with one at SHOT and found the turrets to be quite positive. Only later did I figure out all of the other reasons I was glad I made the purchase.

I would like to find somewhere local that has both the Leupold and NF in stock so I can see these differences for myself. Obviously there would be no way for me to quantize any sort of adjustment error in either scope, but the build quality and image quality should be evident.

For me, image quality is far down the list of features, when dealing with high end scopes. Here is my general (ordered) list:

Repeatability
Durability
Turret Accuracy .1 does = .1
IQ

Yes, the NF is more expensive, but also keep in mind you can get them for $2100 and that includes $150 rings. But that's a moot point if you don't want FFP. If you want SFP, then your options open up a bit more, and your wallet stays fat.

There are ways to get good deals on NF, but you have to know where/who to ask.

[decodeddiesel]

All of my grips revolve around my past experience with Leupold, not things I've read. I've been through a few Leupolds 4.5-14 and 6.5-20 and I was generally unsatisfied with things like backlash (on the parallax knob) and mushy turrets. Years ago, I bought the NF after messing with one at SHOT and found the turrets to be quite positive. Only later did I figure out all of the other reasons I was glad I made the purchase.

For me, image quality is far down the list of features, when dealing with high end scopes. Here is my general (ordered) list:

Repeatability
Durability
Turret Accuracy .1 does = .1
IQ

Yes, the NF is more expensive, but also keep in mind you can get them for $2100 and that includes $150 rings. But that's a moot point if you don't want FFP. If you want SFP, then your options open up a bit more, and your wallet stays fat.

There are ways to get good deals on NF, but you have to know where/who to ask.

Good points.

I just wanted to say that I do sincerely appreciate you taking to time to add your thought and experiences here.

[javentre]

I just wanted to say that I do sincerely appreciate you taking to time to add your thought and experiences here.

Anytime. Before you buy - shoot me a PM.

[crossgun]

Honestly I believe that you should consider the 5.5-22x. If your going to play the 1000 yard game and really want to push all the accuracy out of your rifle them it would help. You can always turn the power down but adding it after the fact is a big problem.

I own a few of each in 3.5-15x, 5.5-22x and the 8-32x. I prefer the 5.5-22 for my long range 308. On my 20" 308 bolt gun I run the 3-15 as I see this as more of a mid range set up because of the short barrel. The problem with the 8-32 is that it ranges on 22X and its easy to forget or have call correction that are wrong on
32X. Most of all my reticles are NP-R2 and I have a couple of the NP-R1 which again I prefer for ranging at longer distances. I can se no disadvantage to MOA/MOA. I understand the MIL thing and can use it but find that I can do the math in my head for MOA much faster.

Go with the Nightforce, You will never look back and you will be happy.