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Thread: Marine Corps to issue "Open" point bullets

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    77 gr TOTM is better.
    Are Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM - TOTMs?
    If so, I'm confused because on the 5.56 duty load post, Doc, you state
    "Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers." about them.
    Please advise.

  2. #82
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    No, they are not TOTM (ie. a bonded OTM); rather the Nosler and Sierra 77 gr OTM bullets are simple open tip match designs that are highly accurate, but rather fragile and inconsistent in their terminal performance.

  3. #83
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    Thank you.
    What are the available/commercial variants of ATK 77 gr TOTM ?

  4. #84
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    Am I mistaken... wouldn't being shot in general fall into the category of unnecessary suffering and superfluous injury?

    Its fine to be hit in the chest with a .50.... and blown apart... but heaven forbid if that blowing apart came from hollow points and Raufoss rounds....

    A 40mm HE round is fine..... but lord help you if you're caught using 5.56 hollow points.....

    the entire argument of undue suffering is asinine. Killing is killing. I don't think the person being killed, would really choose one over the other... considering he loses either way.... he'd probably choose neither.

    and that JAG officer sounds like a shit bag.... new guy out to make a name for himself... just a brown noser.

    I read a book that talked about SEAL Team 1 getting ready to deploy to Vietnam. The commander bought a full supply of crossbows to take with them, but when command got wind, he was made to return them because they were deemed "too quiet" and would give his men an "unfair advantage."

    I'm sorry... I was unaware we were playing candy land....
    When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.. - Ronald Reagan

    smoke and drink and screw..that's what I was born to do.. - Steel Panther

  5. #85
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    ranger2--there are none. The bonded TOTM was not put into production, instead the slightly less expensive SOST Mk318 round (same design and construction as TOTM, but not bonded) was made.

  6. #86
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    Bonding adds a bunch of cost to a bullet.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    I read a book that talked about SEAL Team 1 getting ready to deploy to Vietnam. The commander bought a full supply of crossbows to take with them, but when command got wind, he was made to return them because they were deemed "too quiet" and would give his men an "unfair advantage."
    Goes back at least to 1139 when the Pope banned the use of crossbows against Christians. Somebody was whining they were unfair (you take a man and train him for his entire life to use a longbow, but you give a peasant a crossbow and he's more effective after a weekend).

    The "undue suffering" thing is ridiculous, especially since dying sooner = suffering less.

  8. #88
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    Doc, do you happen to have the barrel length, RD and RL data for the 77gr TOTM round? Just for comparison purposes with other barrier blind loads.

    Fed 77 gr TOTM in bare gel: vel = 2677 f/s
    NL = 0.5”, pen = 16.75”, Max TC = 4.5” @ 4.5”, RW = 76.0 gr

    Fed 77 gr TOTM auto glass: vel = 2677 f/s
    NL = 0”, pen = 15.25”, Max TC = 4.2” @ 3.5”, RW = 42.8 gr

    from Doc's NDIA 2008 presentation

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