Bonded...or not?

[WS6]

I have noticed that blonded bullets (Gold Dot, PDX1, RangerB, etc.) tend to show subdued expansion through clothed gel, and seemingly, in OIS's, from what I have heard.

However, through auto-glass, they tend to meet 12"+ penetration.

Rounds like HST and Ranger T sometimes under-penetrate by an inch or two in bare gel, and often 1-2 inches through auto-glass. However, they expand very robustly and penetrate 12-14" through IWBA and heavy clothing tests.

Is the penetration in bare gel (naked people?) and auto-glass worth giving up some expansion in clothed gel (clothed people?), or is it better to give up the ability to reliably penetrate auto-glass and penetrate 12"?

So, are bonded-bullets shortcomings worth the advantages they have holding togather, or not?

[INTrooper4255]

Most all of the bonded rounds are really good anymore, against bare or lightly layed targets and through barriers. I personally carry Co-Bon DPX, which I think is about the best handgun round out there against all targets, but any of the newer bonded rounds will serve you well. They will fare better against heavily clothed individuals as well as the auto glass and wall board barriers. Mostly, it just depends on how likely you would need a bonded round against auto glass/sheet metal or if you just need a round for a clothed suspect?

[sgalbra76]

Whether you go bonded or not depends on what caliber you are using, and what your application is.

The 9mm and .357sig have trouble punching through some barriers like a window or autoglass with a regular JHP(even if you use 147gr). If you want to be able to effectively tackle these barriers, you'll need a bonded bullet just like the 5.56 needs bonded bullets to effectively pass through a windshield.

Larger calibers like the .40S&W and .45acp have the momentum to go through a windshield regardless of what type of hollow point you are using. This is a major selling point for the .40S&W with law enforcement since we don't always get to use what ever type of ammo that we want. The same applies to higher momentum rifle rounds like the 6.8 SPC which will also punch through a windshield well without the need of a bonded bullet.

So, in general if you are using a smaller caliber, you'll need a bonded bullet if you want better penetration through some barriers. Then of course bonded bullets tend to not open up quite a big as a regular JHP, nor to they seem to be as reliable expanders as their regular JHP counterparts. Everything is a tradeoff.....

[DRT]

Heavy-for-the-caliber HST and RangerT .40 S&W do well through intermediate barriers. These are my top picks when I'm given a choice. I see no reason for a bonded pistol round at ~1000fps, however, I carry a couple mags of bonded rifle ammo, to augment my 75gr hornady TAP, for barrier situations.

[Robb Jensen]

In my Glock 22 Gen 4 I carry Winchester Ranger Bonded 180gr JHP.
Why?
1. It's rated very high on the list of good .40 defense loads.
2. Because we carry it at the store where I work and comes in 50 round boxes and my employee price (actual cost) is pretty darn good.

[DacoRoman]

Howdy guys

Can someone tell me how the relatively light but fast (115 grain) 9mm Barnes Copper bullets in the DPX loads compare to both the bonded and the un-bonded 124gr +P Ranger T's in the auto glass and sheet metal penetration tests?

Also I can totally see how a LEO or a soldier would be concerned with auto glass etc, but in your opinions, would a civilian be better served with just going with an unbonded Ranger T, for example, due to better performance in the cloth tests?

I'm talking in 9mm.

[tpd223]

Even many coppers don't get into gunfights in and around cars, so I counter your question with a question; How likely are you to legitimately need to shoot someone inside a car?

If you are a trooper you have a great deal of need for this capability, and if there is a trade-off then it's worth it.

A guy who mainly works retail and is armed to counter robbery suspects at close range has much less need for this capability.

"The mission drives the gear train"


FWIW, in testing I have done I find the DPX to penetrate way more sheet metal than standard bullets in a given caliber, but Doc advises that DPX doesn't do as well as bonded bullets through windshields.

Personally, and I am on the street nightly working patrol, I worry very little about penetration through windshields as I find myslef hardly ever in front of cars, and if I am I am getting out of that position in a highly motivated fashion.

I have noted in OISs here that both Gold Dot and non-bonded 124gr 9mm bullets worked just fine through side and rear glass, giving far better penetration that I was led to believe.

[DacoRoman]

Even many coppers don't get into gunfights in and around cars, so I counter your question with a question; How likely are you to legitimately need to shoot someone inside a car?

If you are a trooper you have a great deal of need for this capability, and if there is a trade-off then it's worth it.

A guy who mainly works retail and is armed to counter robbery suspects at close range has much less need for this capability.

"The mission drives the gear train"


FWIW, in testing I have done I find the DPX to penetrate way more sheet metal than standard bullets in a given caliber, but Doc advises that DPX doesn't do as well as bonded bullets through windshields.

Personally, and I am on the street nightly working patrol, I worry very little about penetration through windshields as I find myslef hardly ever in front of cars, and if I am I am getting out of that position in a highly motivated fashion.

I have noted in OISs here that both Gold Dot and non-bonded 124gr 9mm bullets worked just fine through side and rear glass, giving far better penetration that I was led to believe.

Great answer. Thanks a lot. And that's what I was kind of driving at, and that is, for a civilian that isn't likely to need to shoot at attackers in cars a high quality non bonded would be good enough, if not better. But I wanted to hear that from a pro.

Also thanks for the info on the DPX rounds. I wonder if they would do better against glass if they were made heavier, but then I guess they might over penetrate in gel?

Are most LE agencies going to the bonded Rangers, or are some sticking to the non bonded?

[tpd223]

The DPX vs windshields thing has to do with the bullet yawing and getting way off target, this appears to be something the solid copper bullets are prone to doing.

The Ranger-T and HST are very good bullets, even being non-bonded. The Ranger has been a common LE bullet for quite awhile, and the HST is doing well selling to departments.

[DacoRoman]

The DPX vs windshields thing has to do with the bullet yawing and getting way off target, this appears to be something the solid copper bullets are prone to doing.

Interesting.

The Ranger-T and HST are very good bullets, even being non-bonded. The Ranger has been a common LE bullet for quite awhile, and the HST is doing well selling to departments.

well since the Ranger T's have been all I can find at a decent price, I feel better knowing this

quick aside, does anyone have a good source for 124gr +P Gold Dots sold in 50 rnd boxes for a good price?

Thanks