How important is the Service Caliber you choose?

[Center Shot]

I am in the process of reading the instructor Manual "Tactical Anatomy" by James Williams M.D.

In the manual a slide is shown showing the expansion by caliber. as seen below

.http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/q...panded_JHP.jpg

I believe Dr. Williams makes the following important point in the manual:

Comparing the 9mm bullet to the 45 ACP bullet, we see that the diameter of the 45 (0.74) is only 13% larger than the 9mm (0.62). The calculated internal surface area of the wound cavity made by the 9mm bullet is 25.1 square inches. The internal surface area of the wound created by the 45 ACP bullet is 29.9 square inches (only 8.4% larger than the 9mm)

In other words, the amount of bleeding created by the 9mm is very likely to be indistinguishable from the bleeding created by the 45 ACP, if both bullets expand as intended and if both bullets pass through similar tissues.

The caliber of the handgun carried by a peace officer or legally armed citizen provided it is kept within the range of modern police ammunition choices, 38 Special +P and larger is less important in terms of wounding capacity than is choosing a caliber and handgun that allows the LEO to place his shots reliably and accurately.
END OF QUOTE

This quote makes a lot of since to me, and is why I like the 9mm and the Glock 19!

[sgalbra76]

The primary reason for the FBI going from the 9mm to the .40S&W was due to the poor penetration ability of the 9mm. Police officers are often involved in gun battles. In gun battles, the participants often use cover and concealment. In civilian gun fire exchanges......not so much.

The 9mm does a little better now days with bonded bullet technology. The .40 is still a more reliable penetrator, and in a police setting I still prefer to use .40 for that application. With more advanced .40 pistols like the M&P, the .40 really shines. It is much more controllable, more durable, and has almost the same capacity as a 9mm.

That being said, I still think that the 9mm is an excellent civilian cartridge. With ammunition shortages, I think that everyone should have at least two handgun calibers.....9mm and .40S&W. If you can't find good 9mm ammo, you can always find good .40S&W ammo given the popularity with LEOs.

[glocktogo]

On a scale including mindset, situational awareness, marksmanship, training, command presence, tactics and luck, caliber choice is the bottom rung.

[TiroFijo]

The frontal area varies with the square power of the diameter... so a 0.74" diameter bullet has 42% more frontal area than a 0.62" bullet.

Given that both should penetrate similarly (perhaps the 45 a little better), I find it difficult to believe that the internal surface area of the wound created by the 45 ACP bullet is only 8.4% larger than the 9 mm.

[sgalbra76]

The frontal area varies with the square power of the diameter... so a 0.74" diameter bullet has 42% more frontal area than a 0.62" bullet.

Given that both should penetrate similarly (perhaps the 45 a little better), I find it difficult to believe that the internal surface area of the wound created by the 45 ACP bullet is only 8.4% larger than the 9 mm.

Another way to look at it is through the overall wound volume that the expanded bullet makes. The average recovered diameter of the 9mm is .60", the .40 is .65", and the .45 is .70". Recovered diameter is defined here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028

Lets say that you shoot someone with a perfect frontal shot and their torso is 10" from front to back. Here's how much tissue and bone is taken out if the bullet exits the body:

9mm = 2.8 cubic inches
.40S&W = 3.3 cubic inches
.45acp = 3.8 cubic inches

Now what does that mean exactly? When it comes to physical hole size, the .40 is 15% more damaging than the 9mm, and the .45 is 26% more damaging than the 9mm. Now that doesn't account for the improvements in external barrier penetration, nor the improvements in internal bone damaging with the larger calibers.

Based on hole size alone, the .40 is a bigger improvement over the 9mm, than the .45 is over the .40.

So there is definately something to be said for using the larger caliber. Bigger hole size(faster bleed-out/more likely to hit important stuff), better exterior barrier penetration, better interior barrier penetration(bone), better momentum(easier to bounce rounds off pavement),.....etc.

The caliber we choose is often based on what each of use considers to be the ideal compromise between factors such as pistol size/weight, ammo costs, magazine capacity, and shootability. With new and better .40s and .45s on the market now days, it's becoming easier to shift our ideal balance in favor of the larger calibers. I still find my balance point to be with the .40, and I probably won't go any bigger. If I have my first choice in ammunition, I'll go with the 9mm as well.

Find your happy place

[Augusto]

I am in the process of reading the instructor Manual "Tactical Anatomy" by James Williams M.D.

Did you like this Manual?

[Center Shot]

The primary reason for the FBI going from the 9mm to the .40S&W was due to the poor penetration ability of the 9mm. Police officers are often involved in gun battles. In gun battles, the participants often use cover and concealment. In civilian gun fire exchanges......not so much.

The 9mm does a little better now days with bonded bullet technology. The .40 is still a more reliable penetrator, and in a police setting I still prefer to use .40 for that application. With more advanced .40 pistols like the M&P, the .40 really shines. It is much more controllable, more durable, and has almost the same capacity as a 9mm.

That being said, I still think that the 9mm is an excellent civilian cartridge. With ammunition shortages, I think that everyone should have at least two handgun calibers.....9mm and .40S&W. If you can't find good 9mm ammo, you can always find good .40S&W ammo given the popularity with LEOs.

Thanks for the post, but I will have to respectfully disagree, unless the testing by Winchester and Speer are flawed. As you can see the penetration and expansion of the 9mm and 40S&W are very close. Here are the results of their published testing

9mm Gold Dot 124 +P
Bare Gel: 11.78"/.720"
Heavy cloth: 14.13"/.600"
Steel : 27.63"/.460"
Wallboard: 12.52"/.660"
Plywood: 14.00"/.594"
Auto Glass: 14.95"/.543"
Denim: 15.88"/.560"

40S&W Gold Dot 180 gr.
Bare Gel: 12.19"/.640"
Heavy cloth: 13.25"/,709"
Steel: 19.60"/.507"
Wallboard: 12.75"/,673"
Plywood : 17.10"/.575"
Auto Glass: 12.75"/.612"
Denim: 14.10"/.662"

9mm Winchester RA9T 147 gr.
Bare Gel:13,9"/.65"
Denim: 14.5"/.66"
Heavy cloth: 14"/.66"
Wallboard: 15"/.67
Plywood: 14.8"/.62
Steel: 17"/.45"
Auto glass: 10,8"/.52"

40 S&W Winchester RA40T 180gr.
Bare Gel: 13.8"/.60"
Denim: 14.3"/.70"
Heavy Cloth: 13.4"/.64"
Wallboard: 13.1"/,66"
Plywood: 15.1"/.64"
Steel: 17"/.52"
Auto glass: 12"/.61"

[Center Shot]

Did you like this Manual?

Yes I like the manual, it is very informative.

[sgalbra76]

Thanks for the post, but I will have to respectfully disagree, unless the testing by Winchester and Speer are flawed. As you can see the penetration and expansion of the 9mm and 40S&W are very close. Here are the results of their published testing

9mm Gold Dot 124 +P
Bare Gel: 11.78"/.720"
Heavy cloth: 14.13"/.600"
Steel : 27.63"/.460"
Wallboard: 12.52"/.660"
Plywood: 14.00"/.594"
Auto Glass: 14.95"/.543"
Denim: 15.88"/.560"

40S&W Gold Dot 180 gr.
Bare Gel: 12.19"/.640"
Heavy cloth: 13.25"/,709"
Steel: 19.60"/.507"
Wallboard: 12.75"/,673"
Plywood : 17.10"/.575"
Auto Glass: 12.75"/.612"
Denim: 14.10"/.662"

9mm Winchester RA9T 147 gr.
Bare Gel:13,9"/.65"
Denim: 14.5"/.66"
Heavy cloth: 14"/.66"
Wallboard: 15"/.67
Plywood: 14.8"/.62
Steel: 17"/.45"
Auto glass: 10,8"/.52"

40 S&W Winchester RA40T 180gr.
Bare Gel: 13.8"/.60"
Denim: 14.3"/.70"
Heavy Cloth: 13.4"/.64"
Wallboard: 13.1"/,66"
Plywood: 15.1"/.64"
Steel: 17"/.52"
Auto glass: 12"/.61"

Winchester does not do a 5-shot average, nor do they use proper measurement of the expansion which is "recovered diameter". Taking the maximum expanded diameter point is unrealistic as in most shootings as the petals fold back and hug the truck resulting in smaller recovered diameter after passing through bone and cartilage. Almost ALL 9mm JHPs that have expanded in real world shootings end up with a recovered diameter of about .60". In .40 it is usually .65".

In any gel test, sometimes you get exceptional results, and not so good results from shot to shot. This is why you do a sample of shots and take the average. The FBI and IWBA have always done 5-shot averages to get a more accurate reflection of of each test samples to get more accurate results. The .40 always does better than the 9mm in average samples in both expansion and penetration. Most online testers do not use a 5-shot average because it is expensive and time consuming to do so. This Winchester data that you have referenced has been on the internet for almost 10yrs and the product line has changed several times since then.

ATK is not a valid tester either. They do not measure by RD, nor do they take adequate samples and estimate an average. They do not document their calibration results of their gel via shot BB either, and if they threw out blocks that did not meet calibration standards.

The best ammo tester right now is Dr. Gary Roberts. He follows the FBI protocols and if you do some searching you can find a lot of work of his in these forums. In fact, this forum was established basically for him after he moved all of his work from Tactical Forums. Dr. Roberts has also said that if he were to be a patrol officer again, his pistol of choice would be a S&W M&P in .40S&W. I think that indicates that he sees a viable improvement in terminal effects and/or barrier penetration from the 9mm to the .40S&W provided that the operator shoots it well. That being said, I do like the 9mm in many circumstances.

More info on Winchester:

"....our online testing comparison tool uses the testing data that we aquired during early production runs of each lot and type. The Ranger T-Series used in the comparison tool was originally tested in 2001 with one shot per ballistic gel block. We did not conduct multiple shot tests as we did not feel that it was necessary. The same test proceedures were used for our Ranger Bonded-Series."


Matthew Schroeder
Winchester Law Enforcement
Government Contact

[TiroFijo]

sgalbra76,

please allow me a small correction,

if the 9 mm expands to 0.60", the 40 to 0.65", and the 45 to 0.70", then with any penetration depth (to simplify, all bullets considered fully expanded from entrance to exit/stop):

the 40 creates a 17% larger crush volume than the 9 mm

the 45 creates a 16% larger crush volume than the 40, and 36% more than the 9 mm