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Thread: Joining the "long handguard" trend?

  1. #21
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    I believe KevinB said he remembers the Rhodesians teaching a far forward support hand grip on the FAL to help control it.

    3gunners really started doing it because they were adding FF tubes to their rifles anyway so why not just make the tube long and cover a low pro gas block since they weren't using the iron sights anyway.

    Once rails were developed for Mil/LE guns the longer rails help get more rail-estate for mounting lights, lasers, bipods, forward grips/handstops.

    Here's the top U.S. 3gunner, the AMUs Daniel Horner. His rifle is a .30 Gremlin, it's a 6.5 Grendel necked up to .30 cal and uses a 125gr bullet going 2625fps which makes Major power factor for rifle (better scoring and sometimes a lot less rounds needed for paper targets). It has a 20" barrel, don't know what size gas system but it's probably rifle length, 18" JP tube, and a Benny Hill Rolling Thunder brake.


    Last edited by Robb Jensen; 03-08-10 at 08:27.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  2. #22
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    I have a DD7.0, 9.0, 12.0 and LMT MRP Rifle length (the heaviest). I prefer the longer length rails. It more comfortable, can use more leverage, it's easier to drive the weapon from target to target, and I'm more accurate shooting that way when shooting on the move since it is more stable.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I believe KevinB said he remembers the Rhodesians teaching a far forward support hand grip on the FAL to help control it.

    I remember reading about back in the day, but can't remember where. I'm sure the technique was an evolutionary process by certain military forces and gamers over the years.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I believe KevinB said he remembers the Rhodesians teaching a far forward support hand grip on the FAL to help control it.
    I've seen him post that too, but I have been unable to find much in the way of photographic evidence of same.

    But, it is part of what I'm saying. Even if that is/was the case knowing the who's and what's and where's of those known for the technique today I think it's safe to say that THEY got it from gaming and not from Rhodesians. I can think of at least one instructor who would have more of a claim on a direct line to that era and area than anyone else and he doesn't shoot an AR that way from what I've seen.

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter the genesis. If it works for someone, go with it, if it doesn't, don't. But I think every shooter should at least try new techniques as they come down the pike provided they pass the sniff test. But you also have to be honest with yourself and take it back, apply it to your uses and needs, and see if it still holds up. A Technique that works great in a 3 day class on an open range may have issues when inside a house trying to transition to your handgun. I see too many people just pick up the bright-shiny-object in both gear and technique and never properly evaluate if it truly meets their needs or not.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The trend you're seeing toward the longer handguards in the "tactical" world is almost entirely due to the move many are making to the support hand being out further forward, which in turn is the result of people either training with, watching videos of, or simply emulating a few high-profile instructors. As has been rightfully pointed out, the majority of those instructors got this technique (even if they don't know that's where they got it) from the gamers. Say this in some circles and they'll lynch you, but I believe it to be the case, especially with the tiny little bit I know about these trainers backgrounds, prior employment, and who influenced the training in those locations. Not to mention that some of these trainers are known prior gamers themselves. There may be other historical references for the technique, but there isn't as clear a lineage from those sources to now as their is tracing things back to the gamers.

    I always encourage people to try new techniques. If that requires a change in equipment then see if you can get a loaner to try the technique first, but give it an honest shake not just "ok I shot a mag that way and it sucks". When we cover stance at our practice nights we do the more common squared, hand further back, feet more squared up stance and we try the "new" hand further out, feet & shoulders more bladed, etc. We talk about pros and cons of both, and we talk about gear setup for both. From there it's the shooter's option, but at least he's tried both in a dynamic environment for as many rounds as we can get out of him and he can make up his own mind.

    As mentioned, there is nothing new in the world. Just because the current proponents trace the roots back to gaming doesn't mean gamers invented it or were the first to do it. You watch the training world long enough, or research far enough back, and you'll find that anything not directly related to technology advancements (and even then some) goes in cycles.
    Very well said. I once tried to make essentially the same point (albeit not as elegantly) as was essentially called a neophyte and a philistine. The shooting world is very much like the fashion world: what's "out" now will be "in" again, sooner or later.

  6. #26
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    I have been using rifle length tubes, and low profile gas blocks on all my rifles for a little over a year now.

    I first started it because I was simply doing what I saw tier 1 shooters doing it.

    I researched it, and shot using this grip on my own and came to an understanding of why this grip is superior over other methods.

    I have gradually evolved to slightly cupping a VFG to now running a handstop and kung fu gripping the shit out of the tube.

    As for where it came from. I am in line with KevinB. I recall in some book about the Selous Scouts and SAS, they employed this method with their FALs. I am willing to bet from what I have seen the Tier 1 shooters that teach this method most likely got it from various types of cross training and similar exercises with other countries militaries.


    PJ

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Then I spent a year with an AK. No rail and very short handguards. I got to liking it so much that I set up my other 6933 with MOE furniture, in a way to mimic what the AK was giving me. I also put together a BCM complete gun that has the standard plastic mid-length handguards. So I've been going shorter over the last several years, and away from FF tubes altogether.
    That's why a lot of us are excited about the midlength MOE handguards.
    "The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage." - Thucydides, c. 410 BC

  8. #28
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    Lightbulb

    Reminds me of the Dissipator days...

    Never knew why they got so much hate.
    "In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle View Post
    Reminds me of the Dissipator days...

    Never knew why they got so much hate.
    I'm waiting on my dissy barrel from ADCO to complete my upper. I think it's a great design.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle View Post
    Reminds me of the Dissipator days...
    I sold a shitload of BM Dissipators back when. In fact I have a ban-era Dissipator sitting in my safe (not mine though). The one I have was purchased around 1999 or so I'd imagine. Other than the weight at the time I thought they were a very good choice and recommended them to all my customers that would listen.

    The problem was that they were using the HBAR, and it had the full FSB out front and the "slave" or true gas block underneath but shaved down. Not to mention it's a BM barrel which wouldn't pass today's standards.

    I've considered appropriating the barrel and having it turned down several times, but the cost has always seemed prohibitive and less than productive. I assumed that turning it down would at least cut into the holes that the FSB pins leave behind if it's removed.

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