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Back around '95 at Mid South, John Shaw used to teach putting your hand as far forward as possible. With the MP5, he would grip the flashlight which was directly under the muzzle with that type forend.
I understand the principle of having more real estate for accessories. However, in an actual combat scenario, would an extended grip really be practical? I've never had to take someone's life with my carbine, but if I had to, I imagine that I would be reluctant to expose the entire left side of my body in an extended grip with long rails. In close-quarters, the very notion of using this grip strikes me as insane.
Last edited by Robb Jensen; 03-28-10 at 21:34.
Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)
Imagine that an intruder has broken into your home. Your wife and children are on the other side of the house, and the intruder is somewhere between you and them blah blah blah. He/she could be anywhere, they could be armed, etc. etc. Meanwhile, you are performing room clearance with your support arm jutting out as far as you comfortably can in conjunction with your long rail system.
Your support arm, the arm that is holding the weapon up to action, the arm that is aiming the weapon, is the very first thing that will enter every room you clear. Your support arm is the very first thing that the intruder will see; the very first thing the intruder will attack and most likely to injure. If the nerves in your support arm are injured, it's very likely that you will lose your grip in that hand and also lose your grip on your weapon.
Like I said, I've never had to use my carbine for defensive purposes, but it just seems like it's common sense that using an extended grip in CQC, room-to-room fighting is less than ideal due to the reasons I've mentioned above. In my perspective, using this grip is akin to holding out your arm and thrusting it into a proverbial meat grinder.
And to be completely honest, from an aesthetic standpoint, it looks pretty stupid.
Last edited by Dirge; 03-28-10 at 22:32.
thats kind of a stretch, hones.
there are two disadvantages to long rails- rails break/bend from time to time, and more importantly, they're heavy. and heavy = suck.
its all about compromise.. whats important to you? your individual weapon needs dictate whether you go long or short.
A 12-14" rail is also a 7" rail. Just because it's long doesn't mean you have to grab it at it's muzzle end ALL the time.
FWIW I've won 3gun matches where the closest rifle target was 3yds away.....at the time I used a 12" JP/VTAC tube. The beauty behind a long tube/FF rail is that it gives you a lot of option. It always makes it easy for you to figure out if your barrel is touching your cover or not. Bigger the better.
This is my biggest concern with the FN SCAR, great gun but the rail is far too short. Great for a 10" gun but it sucks on a 16" or 16"+ gun.
Last edited by Robb Jensen; 03-28-10 at 23:07.
Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)
If your leading with an extended muzzle and telegraphing your entry your doing it wrong anyway. Of course we have alternate holds / techniques that we may find more advantages in certain instances, however I run with an extended support arm grip whenever I can use it. I will also say that 99% of my carbine shooting is CQB work and I spend a lot of time in shoot houses, which affords me a lot of opportunity to run and compare different styles.
From the front neither my primary or support arm "chicken wing" and I do not present any more body parts from this profile than with an old school HK fighting grip / stance. I am much quicker to snap up onto target, much faster to transition between targets, and have far greater recoil management which makes me much quicker with follow up shots with much greater accuracy at speed. I could care less how the aesthetic of this technique looks. I care about how much better it makes me at what I do.
In my 20 year professional career I have run the gambit of shooting styles / techniques in a CQB environment. For myself, I will say without a doubt that this technique is by far the most efficient and effective that I have ever used.
YMMV.
Last edited by Surf; 03-29-10 at 00:46.
I just finished a 16in DD CHF middy barreled rifle with a DD 12in Lite rail. My patrol rifle is currently a 16in DD CHF carbine length with a TROY TRX 13in hand guard. The Troy is WAY too heavy for in and out of the car so I have a DD 9in Lite Rail on the way. The Troy TRX will go on my 6.8 build that I started. The lower is complete minus the stock because don't know what I want yet (ACR) and the upper is minus the bolt and barrel because I don't know if I want a 16 or 18 in barrel. I am also working on a SBR with a 10.3 DD CHF barrel and a Mega Machine Shop Mono upper in mid length. I think the longer rails give a longer sight radius for BUIS and better control over the rifle with the support hand out as far as possible.
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