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Thread: Help me spend $2,000....wisely

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by eguns-com View Post
    Today the optic is a vital piece of the rifle. You cannot learn to use the rifle correctly without the optic.
    Ummm... no. Optics enhance firearms, but they do NOT replace the fundamentals of shooting and do not render a firearm useless without them. A target with irons aimed at his chest at 50yds is just as dead as one with a red dot aimed at them. There's nothing "correct" about it. The only thing a RDS will allow you to do is get on target faster - the rest has nothing to do with an optic or lack thereof.
    Last edited by Skyyr; 03-13-10 at 14:21.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complication View Post
    That might be taking it a little far. I'd say the optic is a vital piece of the rifle and thus training with it should be a priority.
    no, I am not


    That said, the optic WILL break down one day (or run out of batteries at the wrong time). At that point, there IS a correct way to use a rifle without the optic, and you should know it. Not knowing how to use your rifle without an optic is like not knowing how to clear malfunctions because "they rarely happen."
    Like when learning to drive a car, "advanced" techniques come later. I do not dispute that you need to learn to use your BUIS. But in todays world with todays methodologies, the RDS type optic is a vital first line piece of the rifle.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    why? It has been shown that he can get a very good quality firearm AND a very good quality optic, and meet the rest of his needs and stay within budget. Please tell me this isn't due to some antiquated and romanticised notion that "you should learn irons first".
    Quality, yes, but is it what he wants? Only he can answer that. However, the chances of that exact combo suiting his original interests aren't exactly astounding. He'd be less limited if he purchased the rifle and everything MINUS the optic, then checked to see how much he had left... and then came back later after he had saved up more (if necessary).

    It's sort of like trying to buy a sports car on a very minimal budget. Sure, you may get your sports car, but you're going to make a lot of compromises. However, if you can drop certain options that can be added at a later date, you'll have less compromises and it'll suit your preferences better.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Anyone that thinks that way is a fool. In fact, most people should think of it quite the opposite ("well, I went and bought the ML3 in Larue cantilever mount but I would have been just as well served with the C3 + ADM straight mount because I don't use any of the features that account for the added cost of the LT/ML3")
    So you're saying that there's not a weight and size savings for an Aimpoint micro? Because, based on the setup you posted, the micro would be a significant upgrade. I can easily agree that there's little difference between a C3 and ML/3 for 99% of users (my main point was the discounted Larue price + mount combo), but that doesn't negate the point. There are multiple optics offerings that he will cut himself out of by trying to make everything fit one budget (again, such as the Aimpoint micro).

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    as I believe they say on the interwebs "oh, the noes!"
    While I truly don't care what he or anyone else's receiver marks are, there's no disputing that there's more investment and resale value in having a pre-built upper/lower combo than piecing together multi-brand items. Again, roll-marks won't make a weapon any more or less deadly, but the extra $100 up front might help you get an extra $300-400 back later on down the road should you choose to sell or trade your rifle. We both know that happens much more often than people would like to admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    actually he can afford everything AND the optic on that budget, as has been shown already.
    What's been shown is that he can afford the BCM upper + spikes lower + Aimpoint C3. What hasn't been shown is that if he waits to get the optic and gets a full BCM rifle, he could come back in a few months and, along with the money he saved, get an Aimpoint micro, TR24, etc. - the actual optic doesn't matter. My point is that he won't be so limited in his rifle choices now, and he'll have more optic choices later.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The ONLY way I would agree with you re: skipping the optic is if it means he'll actually go take a class with the iron sights. If he's just going to spend a year farting around with the gun with irons only because you told him he didn't need an optic then I say buy the optic now. If, however, skipping the $465 on the C3/ADM combo now means he has the cash to go take a quality introductory class like Randy Cain's Carbine 1 where the focus is entirely on the fundamentals and where he'll actually be training with someone that understand and appreciates the iron sights, and who can teach him to get good hits out to 200 yards with those iron sights, then I would agree with you that it is worth skipping the Aimpoint and putting 600-800 rounds out of that case to good use with Mr. Cain.
    This I agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If, however, he's just going to go take a blasting class anyway, a year from now regardless, with or without the optic, then he might as well get the optic now.
    Again, I agree, provided he gets what he wants/needs at the time of purchase. However, the only combo shown so far is the combo mentioned above + C3. Unless he specifically wanted the C3, then it's safe to say it's not his first choice and he'd be better served saving up for the optic later.
    Last edited by Skyyr; 03-13-10 at 14:51.

  4. #34
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    my vote: Colt 6920, an MI front sight housing light mount, surefire x300, badger tac latch, 7 Pmags, a vickers 2 point combat application sling and some training. Learn the rifle and the basics then change things as you see fit adding grips, rails optics and other "goodies". A good friend of mine that spent alot of years in the marines once said to me "the only thing you really need on a combat rifle is white light and iron sights, all the rest is just helpful".

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Ummm... no. Optics enhance firearms, but they do NOT replace the fundamentals of shooting and do not render a firearm useless without them. A target with irons aimed at his chest at 50yds is just as dead as one with a red dot aimed at them. There's nothing "correct" about it. The only thing a RDS will allow you to do is get on target faster - the rest has nothing to do with an optic or lack thereof.
    Uhmm, yes. Read my reply right above this one. Manipulating and shooting the carbine is different with a RDS than with irons. You need to learn to shoot with irons as a backup system (notice the words -- backup system -- something you learn to do when your main line fails), sure. But it is just that, a backup system.
    • formerly known as "eguns-com"
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    •eguns.com has not been actively promoted in a long time though I still do Dillon special
    orders, etc. and I have random left over inventory.
    •"eguns.com" domain name for sale (not the webstore). Serious enquiries only.

  6. #36
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    Not to ruin anyone's fun, but the question was essentially "What should the first $2,000 be spent on?"

    In some peoples' opinions, an optic falls into the "first $2,000" category. In others' opinions, it does not. The lists provided reflect that.

    Unless eo500 specifically asks, "why should I (not) get an optic instead of XXXXX?" this discussion is getting off-topic and belongs elsewhere.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by eo500 View Post
    .....
    .....
    This being my first AR, I have ruled out building my own from scratch, but I would be willing to “assemble” one from a complete upper and lower, if it could save some $.

    I’d rather have a better rifle now and add “accessories” later, than have a piece of crap with all the bells and whistles. Accuracy and reliability are very important to me. I’d also rather wait to get the right rifle than pick up one off the shelf that I’m not happy with.

    With the $2,000 budget I NEED to get the following:

    Rifle (I’m looking at the: Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4, DDM4v3 midlength, BCM middy, or any others you can recommend of similar quality)
    Ammo (at least 1 case)
    Sling (I need help with this one)
    Magazines (at least 5, but preferably 10, Magpul P Mags)
    Any other necessary “tools” or accessories that are deemed necessary
    Am I forgetting anything on this list?

    I’d LIKE, but am willing to wait to purchase when I save up some more extra cash:

    Aimpoint sight (model yet to be decided)
    Vertical grip
    Flashlight/mount

    I live in OH, so I’ll probably be taking a trip to see Grant for this purchase, but I'm not opposed to buying directly from other reputable sources. My local gun shops are sorely lacking in selection and knowledge. I want to get all my ducks in a row before I "pull the trigger" on this purchase. I’d appreciate any advice I can get from people who have been in my situation, and know a lot more than me. Thanks in advance.
    My most recent (and my first AR purchase in a very long time) was the Noveske N4 Light Basic: http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...since=&status=

    Having drunk the Noveske Kool-Aid, I can say it does taste very good. It really shines with the heavier bullets.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complication View Post
    Unless eo500 specifically asks, "why should I (not) get an optic instead of XXXXX?" this discussion is getting off-topic and belongs elsewhere.
    I disagree. Whether or not an optic should be part of an initial carbine purchase is a very valid topic, and quite germane to this discussion.

    While debating the merits of an optic itself is germane, the discussion of which one it should be (which some folks seem to be bringing into the debate) is more of a sidetrack.

    Arguing that an RDS shouldn't be part of an initial rifle purchase in favor of "iron sight mastery" shows a mindset not up to speed with the best way to put holes in bad guys.

    This is confirmed by discussion of "resale value" for a gun that, as a first rifle (and possibly only) carbine purchase that should be something someone holds on to for life.

    Iron sights mastery is, for lack of a better term, out of date. Talking about a battery dying in mid-gunfight is silly when Aimpoint batteries last 50,000 hours. That's almost 5 years if you leave it on the whole time.

    Not getting an RDS initially because you may want to get something later? What a silly argument. Is the OP not going to be able to save up money after this initial purchase? Of course not. If he decides the Aimpoint isn't right, he can swap it out later. Until then, he'll still have an effective fighting gun that will enable him to get better, faster hits on target than with iron sights.

    Come on. Let's get real here.
    Principles matter.

  9. #39
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    I would have gotten the optic right away if I had had enough money to do so myself. I don't see where the OP says he doesn't know how to shoot iron sights already. Maybe everyone is just assuming so because he is a noob to AR's. I would get the optic now and maybe only 500 rounds of ammo instead if that is all the money left over will buy. He can start an ammo fund to buy more later on, buying ammo is never going to end anyway. It gets much harder later on to come up with the full amount needed for the optic, than for ammo a little bit at a time. My opinions are based on my own experience and YMMV.

    Get the optic now. Rob's plan is a good one.


    ETA: He can take the optic off, learn to shoot his irons, put it back on and verify the zero. It's not that hard.
    Last edited by DTHN2LGS; 03-13-10 at 18:54. Reason: See above.

  10. #40
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    my two cents re: optic vs no optic, I would opt for the better parts + no optic/ammo/good carbine class option first, and then get the optic next summer

    this way you'll get training sooner rather than later the utility of which is obvious

    also importantly you'll get to zero your BUIS (obviously crucial) and learn your limitations with BUIS, which may not be as many as you think, but as one example, I find that I can get a 5 round group into 4-6 inches at 100 yards shooting prone with a stock 6920 (with a LaRue LT 103), but at 300 yards the short sight radius of the 6920 causes the target to totally blur when focusing on the front sight, and typically I can get a max of two rounds on target like 14 inch apart or worse (using a CSAT target); but at moderate to CQB distances the BUIS are very practicable

    also, in a class, you'll see a variety of optics and set ups and you can check them out to see which you like best

    then for the next class you can go with your optic, your BUIS is already zeroed, so you just work on zeroing your optic, and now you'll be able to see the difference between the two
    Last edited by DacoRoman; 03-14-10 at 12:19.
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