civilian ownership of peq 15a

[JSantoro]

EDIT: Incorrect post

[Cincinnatus]

i'm totally against federal regulations that don't directly affect interstate commerce as it relates to the actual interstate travel of money and goods, and only then when there is an exceptional need for mature interference, as all other federal regulation is completely and totally unconstitutional..

however, people can be pretty stupid, and i'm sure eye-damaging IR laser NDs would be a lot more common if everybody and his uncle could just walk into Walmart and buy one. should they be able to? hell yes. would most people be stupid with them? hell yes.

Amen. Preach it, brother!

[jostha2007]

Gents, and i understand this is a zombie thread, but I want to share some info with you from another site in regards to civilian ownership of AN/PEQ-15 apparently ICE_HIC Anti proliferation units are out in droves looking for these devices. I would love to own one, but its not worth A. losing my hard earned money to buy one, legally, only to get it seized and B. Losing my freedom due to having illegal contraband.

So, ill stick with my civvy legal OTAL or DBAL lasers and deal.

here is the link (Yes I know its from the OTHER black rifle site, but its worth a read)



not hot linking it, but if yo ugo there you can see the letters from the agents.

Basically they have means of taking them from you even if you bought them "legally"

I read up on the FDA regulations, and we actually, as Civilians are not allowed to own them. They are, as stupid as it sounds, deemed a threat to our national defense.

[JohnnyC]

Gents, and i understand this is a zombie thread, but I want to share some info with you from another site in regards to civilian ownership of AN/PEQ-15 apparently ICE_HIC Anti proliferation units are out in droves looking for these devices. I would love to own one, but its not worth A. losing my hard earned money to buy one, legally, only to get it seized and B. Losing my freedom due to having illegal contraband.

So, ill stick with my civvy legal OTAL or DBAL lasers and deal.

here is the link (Yes I know its from the OTHER black rifle site, but its worth a read)


not hot linking it, but if yo ugo there you can see the letters from the agents.

Basically they have means of taking them from you even if you bought them "legally"

I read up on the FDA regulations, and we actually, as Civilians are not allowed to own them. They are, as stupid as it sounds, deemed a threat to our national defense.

Those threads are old news. If anything all they accomplished is driving people underground, regardless of the legality of their systems. There's nothing about the lasers that prohibits civilians from owning them, the argument is that because of the terms under which they have been sold by the manufacturers, there's no way that they could be put in civilian hands legally. It is all variance-based.

Essentially the argument is this:
L-3 or BE Meyers only sells to .mil or LEO. .mil and LEO under their provisions of sale state that these lasers will never be sold to individual officers, soldiers, etc. and must remain unit property and must be destroyed or returned to manufacturer upon end-of-life, never sold to individuals.
LEO sells surplus units to civilians contrary to their sales provisions with the manufacturer. If a civilian purchases one of these, it is defacto "illegal" in that the seller is breaking their terms with the manufacturer.

While not illegal in terms of breaking a federal law (aside from actual stolen property), technically the providing entity has broken their contract with the manufacturer. What comes out of that is sort of a gray area. A typical example used by DHS would be, "IZLID's have only ever been sold to the military, ergo, if there's one outside of military control in the hands of an individual, it is stolen." That logic has been used across the board, even with legally acquired lasers. Essentially, there are loopholes that exist in the law, but DHS chooses to ignore said loopholes, and the cost of the device pales in comparison to the cost of defending oneself from confiscation or prosecution.

Realistically of course, it's not worth the hassle since the laser classes which fall under the scrutiny are those which are used to call in CAS and the like, something which a civilian is unlikely to encounter. Aiming laser power ranges are more than adequate for small arms engagement ranges.

The thing that I take issue with is that laser illuminators fall under this, and these are really where the best use lies in the civilian market. An illuminator hald the size of a Mk-31 flare pen that illuminates as well as an SPIR should not be controlled in the same manner as a non-diffused aiming laser. In my mind they should be two separate categories.

As far as "allowed," there are many many people building their own high-power lasers completely within the law, regardless of wavelength. Check out laserpointerforums.com for examples. Completely within the law.

Another hypothetical, let's say I work for a large touring entertainment company. We hold various lasers and the variances to operate said lasers. Let's say that because the building lights are out during a show, the visible wavelength lasers for a show don't have to be very high powered. Sweet, we've got a variance for a visible laser that we will use during the show. Well shitsnacks, when all the building lights are on during load-in I can't see to position my lasers. FDA requirements are very strict in terms of how lasers have to be positioned and travel paths and minimum distances, etc. I absolutely have to be able to see where my lasers terminate!!! Well how am I going to do this? The show has to go on, and I don't have enough time to get the lights off because one of the carpenters had to go to the doctor to get this ball rash checked out that he got from this skank groupie in San Antonio. Shit, we're behind on load-in, the building electrician showed up an hour late, the motors came from North Dakota so they're damn near frozen and we have to wait an hour for them to warm up before we can even come close to flying the rig. On top of the motors and the building guy and the carpenter with the rotten wiener, I still have to figure out a way to aim this fancy Nd:YAG!!!! Crapcakes, I'm one screwed roadie, and not in the "hey do my cues so I can take this chick back to the bus real quick."

But, I'm a smart guy, I remember that I've got this cool little NOD in my bunk, with an awesome IR filter over the lens that blocks out pretty much everything but the IR spectrum. I get this great idea that I'm going to take a PEQ-15, screw a picatinny rail to the top of my laser and use the IR laser on the PEQ to aim with!!! I'm the goddamn Batman!....errrr genius! Sweet, I figure it all out, I fill out the variance, all my ducks are in a row. Rail is mounted. Everything is aligned and it's gonna work great and save me time and rainbow farts and unicorn assholes and puppies galore!!!! Guess what, the manufacturer can still tell me to go pound sand, even though I have an entirely legal FDA variance in my hot little hands. The government says it's all good, and the manufacturer can still tell me to eat a bag of dicks. In the end, despite all the work, and even having legal standing, it's still a pain in the ass and I tell the production manager that we need to hire another 4 guys, call the steward, he makes a phone call, and we finish early enough to get a blackout and I can shoot some beams.

The moral of the story is, we have a great many options that are entirely designed with the civilian IR laser user in mind. They do a great job. In fact, because they're designed specifically to fit within those limitations, manufacturers do all they can to make sure they're as useful in the civilian market as possible. I can get a super whiz-bang IZLID of eyeball burning justice, but it doesn't suit my purposes at all, and it's not worth the hassle to source one legally, and they go for way too much to risk sourcing one illegally. Bottom line, a civvy laser will do everything you need it to, if you need a high-powered laser you will either be issued one, or you can build one completely legally, and it's not worth the hassle or risk to get a real deal awesome IR light saber of DOOOOOOOM! Do I want an IZLID 1000P? Absolutely! For the same reason I want a BAR and an MP-5SD and a Mk19. Do I have the time, money, or inclination to go about acquiring one legally? Nope. Do I have the space in my prison purse to risk acquiring one illegally? Not a chance. Should they be restricted in the way that they are? Not at all.

[jostha2007]

Well said, and I completely agree with what you are saying. To be honest my OTAL (Civvy legal) does everything I need it to. Infact I am upgrading to the DBAL-i2 (another civvy variant) that will do exactly what i need it to. I have an IR filter built into my scount light (again civvy legal) and a nice lower class IR laser will completely suit my needs. Do I want a PEQ15, yes, do i want to risk losing it if I get it legally? No, not at all, and I am not willing to attain anything stolen, what so ever, so Ill stick with what I got.

[coastwatcher42]

I too would like to have a PEQ-15, but the risk involved is more than I'm willing to take. So, I guess I'll stick with civilian legal lasers. By the way, has anyone heard any updates on when (or if) the L3 Insight Carbine Infrared/Visible Laser (CIVL) will be available?

[Gray Ghost]

I own a couple of the ATPIALs (all legal and clean units)

That's sounding like that's not actually the case.
No clue how Stickman and all the other hundreds of photos I've seen online of guys with these mounted on their rifles (Mk18 clone thread on arfcom..) can legally own them.
Were they ALL stolen units (with maybe the exception of soldiers or LE agents mounting them on their personal weapons)?

[GotAmmo]

nevermind

[Iraqgunz]

It's real simple. If an LEO or military person purchases one and then re-sells it, it is 100% legal. The issue is sales of units that have a certain Mw rating. They are regulated by the FDA as I recall and a simple Google search probably will provide all the info.

That's sounding like that's not actually the case.
No clue how Stickman and all the other hundreds of photos I've seen online of guys with these mounted on their rifles (Mk18 clone thread on arfcom..) can legally own them.
Were they ALL stolen units (with maybe the exception of soldiers or LE agents mounting them on their personal weapons)?