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Thread: Taking From Others W/O Permission

  1. #1
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    Taking From Others W/O Permission

    This thread is meant to be a philosophical discussion, nothing more.

    It's a SHTF(extended) or it's TEOTWAWKI. Your family is slowly starving to death. Do you loot from non-occupied dwellings or businesses? I say yes.

    Same scenario except everything has been looted from easy targets. All remaining food is in the hands of individuals and groups. Do you try and take food from others by force? If you answer yes, how would you feel if someone better trained, larger group, etc. decides to take your remaining food? As in, you can't prevent them? If you would take from someone by force, and someone did it to you, what would your attitude be? If it's ok for you to do it, isn't it ok for someone else?

    You or a family member needs meds to survive. Do you loot the pharmacy? There would be other people that need the same meds. By you taking them, then you will have condemned people to die. Would you be ok with it if someone else did it before you? Would it be better to try and share the meds?(Logistics difficult). Possibly at least more people would have longer to put their families in a better position before they died.

    Do you take medicine from others? If so then if someone took your medicine then turn about is fair play?

    Hopefully we can have a productive discussion. I realize there are many, many variables but let's keep it civil and thought provoking.
    Last edited by 6933; 03-18-10 at 11:22. Reason: spelling

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    pharmacy, yes...others, no. i wouldnt take meds someone else needed from them, but i do feel that places like Wal mart are gonna be first come first serve. i would only take the meds i need and some basic antibiotics. of course there is different levels of seriousness...temporary type situation, and then theres full on SHTF type that will change a persons ideals. a stockpile of various medications would be as good as gold if you could defend it. i guess i dont really worry about the food issue...im from Iowa, where your food comes from, as well as your food's food. i have as good of a shot feeding my family as anyone does, and maybe better.
    "I can make you feel, but i cant make you think"- Ian Anderson

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    The one thing that many other blogs and forums have said is "No, its not moral". I fully support this but I also ask this question many times which I believe you have brought up... "Is it stealing if the owners have abandoned it?" Just like cars on the side of the road go up for auction after so long because they are considered abandoned. The vehicle has value but the owner has left it and not returned for it.

    Doorman

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcmanus View Post
    Sorry I have replied three times in a row but this situation is something I give more thought to then anything in regards to disaster planning, and so I have a lot to say.

    I have thought along the same lines as you, and you are right, looting would result in other people not getting their meds, especially in a situation with a med like insulin that needs to be kept cool, has a very short shelf life, and most likely is only kept in small sellable supply at any pharmacy.

    But there are a few realities that need to also be considered. The biggest is that if Katrina or the LA riots are proof of anything it is that humans can very quickly devolve into a "Might is Right" system of governance. The actual term for it is Mobeaucracy, a system of government that is dictated by mob mentality and that is commonly seen in riots, or directly after societal collapse. A pharmacy is a location that contains intoxicants. Intoxicants = Power. Pharmacies will be hit hard, and fast, and since the average idiot doesn't know what they are looking for, they are just going to grab shit and figure it out later. That insulin is going to either be kicked to the floor, spoil with a lack of power, or be heaped into a bag with everything else. Heart Medication? All that is is a pill that looks like every other pill, and will be heaped into a pile too.

    Next we have the reality of a SHTF situation, and how without government humans are just another animal on the planet. Society exists for the benefit of it's contributers. Government is an organic concept that grows while groups of people's populations increase, and thus their needs. Government acts as a way to offer protection, infrastructure, ext. This also results in comfort, and a lack of humans having to rely on their own abilities to survive. The simple reality of a SHTF situation is that people will die, especially in a complete collapse. Lots of people.

    Philosophically my fiance and I are well aware of the fact that she lives the life she does because of society, and its benefits. Her life expectancy will be greatly reduced without her medicine, and that is the cold hard truth of living in a natural world. The natural world exists because of the law of Survival of the Fittest (evolution), society alters that law. We can't however ignore it if society were to collapse. Therefore, accepting the fact that "fit" individuals will loot the pharmacy anyway and most likely do it for nefarious means, and the fact that the cold hard truth of someone that can't do is that they aren't "fit" enough to accept reality, I have no issue looting a pharmacy.

    Now if someone was looting the pharmacy at the same time and just wanted medicine for their family, would I shoot them and take everything? Hell no. Would I take more then what my fiance needs to live as long as possible? Hell no. Would I take all the insulin? Probably not simply because I am not going to take something others may need only to have it go bad because I took to much of it.
    This is my response to your similar question in the "What would you miss most" thread. I am going to delete it from that thread, and help move the conversation over here.
    Mobocracy is alive and well in America.*
    *Supporting Evidence for Hypothesis: The Internet
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    'All of my firearms have 4 military features, a barrel, a trigger, a hammer, and a stock."
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  5. #5
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    Someone who is willing to take goods by force, should neither be surprised or upset when that force is resisted.

    I'm not going to stop someone "harvesting" from an abandoned building or vehicle. But if it belongs to me, it would be best for all involved not to do so.

    I just want to be left alone, to care for those I care about. I will use the items I paid for to do so.

    And I will be just as polite to everyone as they are to me.

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    we can all say how we would like to react in an end of the world as we know it situation, but if it really happened and you were for whatever reason expelled from dwelling or have ran out of food you instantly become one of two things, a begger or a taker. if it comes down to my family members starving or me taking something that is not mine, well, the answer is a given. pride goes right out the window when your wife, child, or grandchild is whithering away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    Someone who is willing to take goods by force, should neither be surprised or upset when that force is resisted.

    I'm not going to stop someone "harvesting" from an abandoned building or vehicle. But if it belongs to me, it would be best for all involved not to do so.

    I just want to be left alone, to care for those I care about. I will use the items I paid for to do so.

    And I will be just as polite to everyone as they are to me.
    Absolutely, but I can tell you one thing: Nothing owned by a corporation, in my mind, is a legit item that belongs to any one "individual". If you question this, then well, sit back and question your relationship with the child hood hero Robin Hood, and also ponder what it would be like to watch your neighbor, your child, your friend, wither away and die while you hold tight to your morals.

    You say "abandoned", I say "un-occupied by a human". If your definition of abandoned is that it is literally "out of business" before you would harvest goods from it then you're out of touch with reality. I wont be thinking a second about Walmart's current profit margin if my fiance is about to go into a diabetic coma, and whoa be anyone that gets in my way and tells me I'm breaking a "law", or being "immoral".
    Last edited by Mac5.56; 03-19-10 at 03:46.
    Mobocracy is alive and well in America.*
    *Supporting Evidence for Hypothesis: The Internet
    -me

    'All of my firearms have 4 military features, a barrel, a trigger, a hammer, and a stock."
    -coworker

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    a few months ago there was a case where a young couple from the SF bay area was missing. they'd gone camping in a red Toyota 4x4 truck and hadn't been heard from. local SAR couldn't really hunt for them because they didn't know exactly where they were supposed to be. the family hired a private helicopter crew that eventually found them.

    the truck had died trying to cross a swollen creek/river and they had broken into a cabin for shelter, warmth and food. they left a note with their contact info offering to pay for the damage and supplies.

    in a case like that, i don't see a problem breaking into a home or cabin in the middle of nowhere to make use of whatever is there that you NEED. try to minimize damage, treat the place like it's your own. if it's a SHTF event, be aware that the actual owner may show up at some point and then you've got some 'splain' to do. if it's a personal SHTF like this scenario that's not as big a concern. if it's a major SHTF, it could be someone else trying to move in on the location even if it's not theirs.

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    its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you....... youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Indy View Post
    its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you....... youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.
    This.

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