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Thread: 2400 rounds in a BCM 14.5" upper with no lube

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    What facts do you have to offer?
    Offer facts about what? I am not the one stating what is or isn’t, I am still waiting to hear about the “lying companies”. I would like to hear the “facts” and specifics of which companies are lying and what they are lying about. Anyone?
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 11-01-10 at 14:15.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Offer facts about what? I am not the one stating what is or isn’t, I am still waiting to hear about the “lying companies”. I would like to hear the “facts” and specifics of which companies are lying and what they are lying about. Anyone?
    You stated "cooler and cleaner." Looking forward to your corrboration; perhaps you could answer 87GN's questions?

    As far as lying companies, markm is referring to past conduct of LWRC.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    You stated "cooler and cleaner." Looking forward to your corrboration; perhaps you could answer 87GN's questions?
    Certainly. I will do my best and perhaps you could reciprocate with your take on his questions? Perhaps he could do the same and respond to his own questions?

    Otherwise, shoot one and you will know. From the chamber rearward, it is irrefutable that the piston system is cooler AND cleaner. If you doubt it, shoot a DI for a 100 rds and try and hold the carrier w/o your asbestos glove. Heck, shoot 50 rds. I have done that little test several times. You tube Vickers doing so with the 416. Nevermind, he is probably wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Coleslaw

    What do you think does more to reduce chamber temperature - a heat sink barrel nut or a gas piston/op-rod system?
    Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber.

    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    How much cooler is the gas block of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
    Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess

    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    How much cooler are the handguards of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
    I would go piston since there is no gas tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Do you think a free float rail that allows air to circulate is less effective than having a gas piston/op-rod system?
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Can you give me specific numbers for anything listed above?
    Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.



    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    As far as lying companies, markm is referring to past conduct of LWRC.
    Perhaps he can answer for himself? I appreciate your attempt to speak for your friend, but he made a statement and I am curious as to what he bases that statement on. I see a plural in there as a general reference to any company that makes a piston driven M16. LWRC happened to be the target/example for this drivel. To refresh memories:

    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    The whole M4 unreliabilty issue is largely perpetuated by lying companies like LWRC who are trying to sell you overpriced solutions to a mythical problem.
    Perhaps you can afford readers here additional information about “lying companies”? Like I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight but am curious as to what raised the wrath of markm, as well as apparently some others like yourself and 87GN directed towards LWRC and the other “lying companies”. I think that is the real question here, not an attempt to redirect the discussion away from the real topic by asking me questions.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 11-01-10 at 15:03.

  4. #24
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    Coleslaw, I don't know markm from Adam. It's a known fact about the history of LWRC. A bit of Googling will do you good there.

    This web site has helped drive home the realization that slapping a piston on a direct impingement gun is not a good thing but it is expensive with no real gains except maybe in SBR and high suppressor use guns. If you do a bit of reading on here instead of saying "well so and so company does it, so it MUST be better" you'll see that DI guns run just as well and are far cheaper.

    Companies follow trends in the market place.

  5. #25
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    Littlelebowski, why are you trying to argue? All I asked for was an answer to a simple question referencing a statement that I didn't make, but you have wholeheartedly supported. That question is not whether I think piston or DI is better.

    You don't know me either, so prior to offering advice on what and how I should present what I know, maybe you should do a little research.

    Back on topic. You still have yet to answer that simple question, and that is who are and what have the 'lying companies' done to raise your ire? Don't try to redirect by turning this discussion into something else as you continue to attempt to do. That only shows me you don’t have a real case in the debate.

    That is the question at hand, the ‘lying companies’. If you can't answer the question, I have to assume based on your comments that the piston producing companies and their owners/directors are less that forthright. Is that what you are saying Littlelebowski, that Ronnie Barrett a liar? Yes or no. Is Karl Lewis a liar? Yes or no. Are Darren and the boys at LWRC liars? Yes or no. Is POF liying? Yes or no. Is S&W lying? Yes or no. Is Saber Defense lying? Yes or no. Is HK lying? Yes or no. Is Colt Defense lying? Yes or no.

    This website has done nothing to ‘drive home’ the realization of anything other than that there are a myriad of opinions relative to this weapons platform. Also, nowhere in my posts did I say anything close to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    "well so and so company does it, so it MUST be better"
    Don’t put words in my mouth, and come up with some real world responses and/or answers.

    Dude, I am going to ask one last time:

    1) Who are the “lying companies” that are the subject of this discussion. Period. Nothing else.
    2) What are the lies?
    3) Is this your personal experience?
    4) If not, whose?
    5) What were the circumstances?

    If you can’t answer, then the discussion is over.

  6. #26
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    I don't need personal experience with Joe Biden to know that I don't want to do business with him and like I said, Google is your friend. You are coming in here, talking about the benefits of the piston guns and offering no corroborating evidence of your own.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Certainly. I will do my best and perhaps you could reciprocate with your take on his questions? Perhaps he could do the same and respond to his own questions?

    Otherwise, shoot one and you will know. From the chamber rearward, it is irrefutable that the piston system is cooler AND cleaner. If you doubt it, shoot a DI for a 100 rds and try and hold the carrier w/o your asbestos glove. Heck, shoot 50 rds. I have done that little test several times. You tube Vickers doing so with the 416. Nevermind, he is probably wrong.
    You must have not read the article in the first post, or you would have seen that Mike Pannone fired 330 rounds in about 20 minutes and then held the bolt by the lugs with his fingertips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Coleslaw

    What do you think does more to reduce chamber temperature - a heat sink barrel nut or a gas piston/op-rod system?
    Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber.
    Well, according to the manufacturer of both items listed, they're far more concerned with chamber temperature than almost anything else (can you tell me why?). So...I don't know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part. Oh, and the answer you're looking for is "heat sink barrel nut."

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    How much cooler is the gas block of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
    Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess
    All else being equal, it's about 150 degrees hotter after 80 rounds have been fired. That is, the gas piston/op-rod gas block is 150 degrees hotter. And it's far from irrelevant. Again, I don't know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    How much cooler are the handguards of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
    I would go piston since there is no gas tube.
    Due to the high gas block temp, average handguard temperatures taken at 4 locations and measured over 15 minutes are higher for the gas piston/op-rod weapon. Again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Do you think a free float rail that allows air to circulate is less effective than having a gas piston/op-rod system?
    What?
    You didn't understand the question? I thought it was pretty simple. Which is more effective at reducing heat (under the handguards, such as the barrel) - a gas piston/op-rod system or a free float rail that allows air to circulate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    Can you give me specific numbers for anything listed above?
    Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.
    Don't worry, no one else who thinks like you can either. They'll yell at me until they're blue in the face that their piston/op-rod weapon runs cooler than a refrigerator, but they're never able to say exactly how much cooler. Because if they had access to actual data, they'd be talking about the parts of the weapon where the gas piston/op-rod system does (slightly) reduce temperatures - while acknowledging that other temperatures are significantly increased.
    Last edited by 87GN; 11-01-10 at 17:07.

  8. #28
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    Wow! Some people get real serious about this stuff!

    I do not own a piston-acutated AR, but my understanding of thermodynamics tells me that the heat is going to have to go somewhere. In a DI system the gas is routed back to the bolt so one would assume there would be more heat in the BCG. In a piston driven rifle that heat is going to be concentrated in the barrel and gas system. The amount of heat is the same, but the areas of concentration are different.

    So the real question (Which I don't think there is any empirical evidence to support yet) is whether or not higher temps in the BCG cause premature failure of the bolt or carrier.

    Does anyone have any specific testing from a reliable source (Not some manufacturing sales brochure and/or website) as to the reliability difference in a piston vs. DI rifle? Heck, I don't think you can really make a claim that one is better than the other due to the lack of a standard and the differences between different piston systems, but that's just my .02 cents...

    I like AK's and I like AR's. I like DI and piston systems, but I think I'm with everyone here who wants to see real world data before making the gas piston plunge.
    Last edited by Devnull; 11-01-10 at 17:56.

  9. #29
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    I'm staying out of this one.
    But I will drop a few links to interesting layman's temp measurements of piston and DI guns, and one with NiB coated BCG just cause it's interesting.

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/04/04/...ls-of-thought/

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/...e-tube-or-rod/

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/10/...n-reduce-heat/

    I saw one of these IR thermometer tests involving an AK somewhere but can't dig it up right now.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolf_walker View Post
    I'm staying out of this one.
    But I will drop a few links to interesting layman's temp measurements of piston and DI guns, and one with NiB coated BCG just cause it's interesting.

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/04/04/...ls-of-thought/

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/...e-tube-or-rod/

    http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/10/...n-reduce-heat/

    I saw one of these IR thermometer tests involving an AK somewhere but can't dig it up right now.
    Wow! Good link! I'll be chewing over that data for a while.

    I'm still wondering if there can be an analysis on mean-time to failure between the two systems. Perhaps the piston system in an AR is just too new to have that data. Oh well.

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