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Thread: I get the feeling that many people don't realize how accurate Iron Sights can be

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetreatHell View Post
    Have you shot at human beings with irons while they're shooting back at you at the same time? ****ers do the damnedest things when they're trying not to be killed, things that make it hard to line up iron sights on their chests.


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    People tend to forget that a range is not a gun fight. I'll take a red dot any day.

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  2. #72
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    There is nothing wrong with Iron Sights, they just become a problem when you have poor eye sight or you want to shoot something really far. An Acog would come in handy.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by danpass View Post
    Army is pop-ups out to 300m right? and they only have to knock it down right? (so they don't know where exactly they hit)

    USMC is out to 500 and they show groups right?




    So with an A2 out on a two-way range, with the target at 400m:

    The basically trained Soldier would say:

    "That looks farther than 300m ................... I think .................... and its definitely bad guys, but I can't even touch that"


    The basically trained Marine would say:

    "That looks farther than 300m .................. might be 400m ................ and its definitely bad guys, let's give it a shot."



    Am I totally off base?

    If I'm even remotely on base here then the only difference is training. The Marine has the confidence, having done it in Basic, to at least take the shot and do so with a reasonable chance of hitting the target.

    At worst fire superiority is achieved because the rounds are close, putting the enemy's head down, and at best its a hit putting the enemy out of the fight.
    Ive seen Joes shoot at things 7-800m out, has nothing to do with the fact we qual to 300m.

  4. #74
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    I think his point is that Marines are at least trained out to 500 and have the confidence to do that. Doesn't take away from what you saw with the Army, N Franklin.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetreatHell View Post
    Have you shot at human beings with irons while they're shooting back at you at the same time? ****ers do the damnedest things when they're trying not to be killed, things that make it hard to line up iron sights on their chests.

    Now, if you have shot at and killed live human beings who were shooting back at you using only irons, and still feel that they are superior to the red dot sight, then I can respect the shit out of that. That would definitely make you a better man than me, and I'd never want to be on the receiving end of your muzzle in a gunfight and would feel sorry for those that find themselves in that position.

    It's a LOT harder to make hits when it actually counts under stress with iron sights than with red dot sights. When it comes to fighting against other determined men with a carbine, not shooting paper, red dot sights are superior in every manner. At CQB distances on non- or slow-moving targets, the advantage of the RDS for the purpose of hitting a smelly, bearded muj ****er in the chest is mostly negligible.

    Look, I like to shoot irons on occasion. And it feels really good when I shoot a nice group at 100 yards with my folding backup irons, and then see the dude's nasty ass target next to me whose rounds are all over the place and was using a red dot, or even a magnified optic. It makes me crack a smile and think to myself, Self, you are one badass mofo, and the Marine Corps trained you damn well on iron sights.

    And it's obvious that you're an experienced shooter, so I don't doubt that you're as good with irons as you make out to be. However, the bottom line is that irons are great on a safe gun range here at home, but they suck balls in combat compared to a parallax free, both eyes open red dot sight that you simply have to place the dot where you want to hit. This is especially true to newer shooters that don't have a ton of experience. It takes a LOT longer to become extremely proficient with iron sights as you are than with a red dot sight. Recreational and Competition shooting are one thing, but when your life and the lives of your brothers-in-arms are on the line in the heat of battle, where you're out of breath and gasping for air from running several hundred yards, sweat pouring down your face, and you've got a dozen+ bad guys moving around at varying distances while shooting at you and your mates, you'll take a red dot over irons. It makes everything easier and is retard-proof. Hell, even a caveman could do it!

    But what's with all the Pat Rogers hate, man? He used iron sights in combat a long time ago in Vietnam and for a very long time thereafter. Now he uses and advocates red dot sights over irons, just like pretty much every other very respected top-tier instructor out there. He prefers and recommends aimpoints over eotechs, just like the majority of other instructors, although there are some very experienced and well known instructors out there who advocate the eotech over the aimpoint. However the fact remains that they all advocate the RDS over iron sights when it comes to gunfights against bad guy(s), as well as training for those potential engagements.

    To call him a "sales pitch instructor" is just plain bullshit and makes it appear that you personally have something against the man. Have you been to one of his classes and trained under him? Is that where you came to that conclusion? He's not going to run and advocate shitty gear to make a buck or get "shit for free." If he did, he would be called on it. And in his line of work, word-of-mouth advertising and your reputation are everything. To risk all that would be asinine.

    But that's all just my opinion, and I'm defending a fellow Marine and brother-in-arms who's done quite a bit in service to this country. What can I say, we're all members of the Marine Corps Mafia and will have each other's backs for as long as we live. That's just how it goes.

    Take care and Semper Fi,

    -Paul
    Agreed.

    Years ago we ran optic and iron tests with some troops.

    Inside 25m doing things like el Presidente etc static, iron sights won. Add in movement - tgt and/or shooter, weather, low light, and you see CCO's accuracy skyrocket.

    There are reasons why the units at the cutting edge of the spear had CCO's a long time before the rest of the military.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.Franklin View Post
    Ive seen Joes shoot at things 7-800m out, has nothing to do with the fact we qual to 300m.
    This sentence means exactly what it says as typed. "...shoot AT things." I can sit here in Stafford, apply some superelevation to my barrel, and take a shot at the Nat'l Museum of the Marine Corps to my north, but I'm not going to start using a shot that I'd missed as an argumentative point. Because IT MISSED.

    Plenty shoot AT things; whether they hit them or provide for "acoustic suppression" is another question, one that relates pretty damned directly to things that include the fact that the Army only quals to 300. It's not limited to it, though.

    Marines miss similar shots all the time, too, and it ties pretty damned directly to not enough time spend on unknown distance ranges with whatEVER aiming system they happen to have.

    Not limited to one branch or the other, so don't key in on perceived potshots taken at your little gun club. They're merely that; perceived.
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    Agreed.

    Years ago we ran optic and iron tests with some troops.

    Inside 25m doing things like el Presidente etc static, iron sights won. Add in movement - tgt and/or shooter, weather, low light, and you see CCO's accuracy skyrocket.

    There are reasons why the units at the cutting edge of the spear had CCO's a long time before the rest of the military.
    A few months back, me and a buddy of mine were at the range doing some training around dusk, as well as several hours into the dark night to get some good low-light training in. Before the sun went completely down, we decided to have a little contest. My friend was running irons, I was running an Aimpoint T-1 RDS, and we wanted to see who could score their hits on target faster. One of us would run the timer while the other would fire 3 rounds into an 8-inch target zone in the high center chest on the silhouette in front of us. We started at the 5 yard line and would move back 3-5 yards after each of us had fired. We have around the same level of skills with the carbine, with myself being a little better and having more time on the gun, mostly with irons too.

    From 5 yards to almost 15 yards, my friend dominated me running his iron sights. Since he kept beating me so damned easily, I insisted that we each fire 3 times at every yard line, just in case this was a fluke... but it wasn't. I tried to increase my rate of fire to compensate for my lack in speed, and wound up throwing a shot or two, I just couldn't keep up. At one point, I forget which range it was at, he beat my time (from the buzzer to the third shot fired) by almost a full second! Except for the one time I shot fast as hell and threw a shot or two, I never once beat him... until we got out to 15 yards that is.

    Once we hit the 15 yard line, he couldn't beat me, not once! At 15 yards, I consistently beat his time by roughly .3-.4 seconds. When we got back to the 20 yard line, I beat him by almost a full second each time, except for the one time that he threw a few shots trying to increase his rate of fire to keep up with me... and I wasn't even having to try all that hard either.

    At the 25 yard line, I beat his time easily by 1.5 seconds. We (actually "he") decided to stop the competition there.

    Not only was I faster out past 15 yards because I didn't have to line anything up or quickly acquire my front sight post and get a good sight picture in general, but because of the rapidly setting sun as we got to the 20-25 yard lines, he had even more trouble simply finding his black front sight. Although we both already knew before we even fired our first shots that my Aimpoint would prevail over his irons, both of us were surprised to see how much he kicked my ass at the closer ranges shooting irons, and how badly I owned him past 15 yards using my T-1 RDS.

    It was definitely an even larger eye opener for us both. I'd recommend that anyone here that has any doubts to run the drill/competition that me and my buddy did, or something similar, with a fellow shooter around the same skill level. It'll quickly make you a believer.

    Semper Fi,

    -Paul

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