Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 77

Thread: I get the feeling that many people don't realize how accurate Iron Sights can be

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    888
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I can't believe I MISSED this thread.

    I can't tell you how many classes I've shown up to an smoked every red dot on the line. The MYTH that the red dot is faster is perpetuated by...

    1. Incompetent shooters who can't deploy them efficiently or...

    2. Sales pitch instructors like Pat Rogers who have buddies at Aimpoint and get their shit for free and make "unbiased recommendations" to thier lackies so that they feel pressured to buy the stuff.

    Red dots have their place. But they're not the mandatory gear that some jokers make them out to be.
    Have you shot at human beings with irons while they're shooting back at you at the same time? ****ers do the damnedest things when they're trying not to be killed, things that make it hard to line up iron sights on their chests.

    Now, if you have shot at and killed live human beings who were shooting back at you using only irons, and still feel that they are superior to the red dot sight, then I can respect the shit out of that. That would definitely make you a better man than me, and I'd never want to be on the receiving end of your muzzle in a gunfight and would feel sorry for those that find themselves in that position.

    It's a LOT harder to make hits when it actually counts under stress with iron sights than with red dot sights. When it comes to fighting against other determined men with a carbine, not shooting paper, red dot sights are superior in every manner. At CQB distances on non- or slow-moving targets, the advantage of the RDS for the purpose of hitting a smelly, bearded muj ****er in the chest is mostly negligible.

    Look, I like to shoot irons on occasion. And it feels really good when I shoot a nice group at 100 yards with my folding backup irons, and then see the dude's nasty ass target next to me whose rounds are all over the place and was using a red dot, or even a magnified optic. It makes me crack a smile and think to myself, Self, you are one badass mofo, and the Marine Corps trained you damn well on iron sights.

    And it's obvious that you're an experienced shooter, so I don't doubt that you're as good with irons as you make out to be. However, the bottom line is that irons are great on a safe gun range here at home, but they suck balls in combat compared to a parallax free, both eyes open red dot sight that you simply have to place the dot where you want to hit. This is especially true to newer shooters that don't have a ton of experience. It takes a LOT longer to become extremely proficient with iron sights as you are than with a red dot sight. Recreational and Competition shooting are one thing, but when your life and the lives of your brothers-in-arms are on the line in the heat of battle, where you're out of breath and gasping for air from running several hundred yards, sweat pouring down your face, and you've got a dozen+ bad guys moving around at varying distances while shooting at you and your mates, you'll take a red dot over irons. It makes everything easier and is retard-proof. Hell, even a caveman could do it!

    But what's with all the Pat Rogers hate, man? He used iron sights in combat a long time ago in Vietnam and for a very long time thereafter. Now he uses and advocates red dot sights over irons, just like pretty much every other very respected top-tier instructor out there. He prefers and recommends aimpoints over eotechs, just like the majority of other instructors, although there are some very experienced and well known instructors out there who advocate the eotech over the aimpoint. However the fact remains that they all advocate the RDS over iron sights when it comes to gunfights against bad guy(s), as well as training for those potential engagements.

    To call him a "sales pitch instructor" is just plain bullshit and makes it appear that you personally have something against the man. Have you been to one of his classes and trained under him? Is that where you came to that conclusion? He's not going to run and advocate shitty gear to make a buck or get "shit for free." If he did, he would be called on it. And in his line of work, word-of-mouth advertising and your reputation are everything. To risk all that would be asinine.

    But that's all just my opinion, and I'm defending a fellow Marine and brother-in-arms who's done quite a bit in service to this country. What can I say, we're all members of the Marine Corps Mafia and will have each other's backs for as long as we live. That's just how it goes.

    Take care and Semper Fi,

    -Paul
    Last edited by RetreatHell; 04-09-10 at 09:26.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,148
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by RetreatHell View Post
    But what's with all the Pat Rogers hate, man?
    Pat was mean to him once, on barfcom, in response to mark's own standard rudeness, and mark has been crying in his Wheaties and taken every opportunity to run Pat down ever since.

    It's not the only reason I have mark on ignore, but it's one of them.
    (and if you keep quoting him his posts show up through that ignore, damnit! )

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,019
    Feedback Score
    0

    First Things First: Kill the Myth.

    Let's kill the myth that that an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot can't deliver decent accuracy with an AR. Molon did the testing:
    ' Range Report: Precision Shooting with an Aimpoint"
    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....light=Aimpoint

    Mounted on an extremely accurate AR , the 4 MOA dot was not a significant handicap compared to iron sights.
    "... in common use at the time... for all lawful purposes... "

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,019
    Feedback Score
    0

    Second Issue: Rapidly Shifting Focus on Far Targets

    This identifies the second issue concerning red dots vs iron sights:
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Vlad Tepes View Post
    I'm no expert but in my experience iron sights impede me more at distance then they do at 7 yards, when using a carbine length sight radius.

    ... (snip for brevity)...
    At 100 yards prone, using a carbine with BUIS, I can readily get a 4 inch group, and if I slow down and don't run a 100 yard standard, I can do better.

    [ ADDED COMMENT: The following is key to the value of the red dot when the time comes to reach out and touch someone at a distance. ]
    But at 300 yards, a hard front sight focus using the carbine results in the target completely washing out for me, as in I can't see it anymore, and I'll be lucky to get 3/5 torso hits on your typical silhouette target, using an in between or back and forth focus.
    [ ADDED COMMENT: Back and forth focus is critical to hits at a distance with iron sights .]
    ...( Sfb)...

    So ironically, to me it seems that a RDS is almost crucial on a carbine, even when, or especially when, shooting at distances beyond 200 or 250 yards.

    That's not even to mention the superiority of a RDS in low light conditions, moving targets, etc.
    Iron sights on rifles , carbines and belt-feds are obsolete for serious military use by US units . It really is that simple.
    Out of time.

    ETA:
    The key to engaging distant targets with iron sights is deep training in rapidly shifting the eye focus from the target ( actually , often , the target reference markers ) to the front sight - and back & forth as needed. Truly deep training -- to the depth required to hold up under stress and hit distant fleeting , obscure targets -- takes a very long time: Years , not weeks or months.
    Last edited by A-Bear680; 04-09-10 at 10:43. Reason: Completion.
    "... in common use at the time... for all lawful purposes... "

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    5,889
    Feedback Score
    24 (100%)
    A very well known and respected firearms instructor once said and I paraphrase, "two way gunfights are not sub-MOA". So whether you use irons, magnified optics or red dots, it is not as simple as sitting at a bench and shooting paper bullseye at any distance.
    Last edited by Sam; 04-09-10 at 10:17.

    If you have to put a compensator on a 9mm, maybe you should buy panties instead of briefs - Ken Hackathorn via Facebook live

    Liking a Glock is a version of Stockholm Syndrome. Nobody likes it but they get use to it in time - Countless Victims

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    43
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    I grew up on irons and now am spoiled with T-1's. FMJs-of-Freedom
    FMJs-of-Freedom



    Krink: If the bullet doesn't hit em the 4 foot fireball will.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,019
    Feedback Score
    0

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by danpass View Post
    My gripe is against those who are against training out to 600. SDM school takes training out to 600, solidifies the fundamentals with iron sights, THEN goes to optics.

    The 0.5k report bitches about the lack of training. The story of the 70yr old is a great example of ingrained fundamentals.

    Some think the only option for dealing with engagements past 300m is crew served weapons, etc …… anything but better rifle training and I totally disagree.

    A trainee learns the basics and the HSLD skills fall into place much quicker and stay with the shooter much longer.
    Can you talk hold-overs and hold-offs with currently issued red dots? That might be useful.
    "... in common use at the time... for all lawful purposes... "

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    567
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gbear48 View Post
    Can you talk hold-overs and hold-offs with currently issued red dots? That might be useful.
    I'm a complete tyro concerning red dots. And I've only used a holosight once (didn't like it).


    Here is some discussion though concerning precision with an Aimpoint:
    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34995
    Dan Miami, FL

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    940
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I can't believe I MISSED this thread.

    I can't tell you how many classes I've shown up to an smoked every red dot on the line. The MYTH that the red dot is faster is perpetuated by...

    1. Incompetent shooters who can't deploy them efficiently or...

    2. Sales pitch instructors like Pat Rogers who have buddies at Aimpoint and get their shit for free and make "unbiased recommendations" to thier lackies so that they feel pressured to buy the stuff.

    Red dots have their place. But they're not the mandatory gear that some jokers make them out to be.

    So, you don't think you'd be faster/more consistent in low light or nighttime conditions, or in unconventional shooting positions with an optic?

    You don't think there are some shooters who's proficiency with an optic exceeds your proficiency with irons? If this is the case, why couldn't we then flip the argument around in favor of optics? Individuals falling outside of the bell curve aren't representative of the entire population.

    Comparing yourself with some unknowns at a class isn't really useful data.

    I keep hearing people extol irons, but most of the examples seem to be from shooting on a square range in relatively ideal lighting conditions. In any case, irons are something that you SHOULD become proficient with.

    Also, do you SERIOUSLY think that the two reasons that you mentioned are the only two reasons many advocate the use of an optic when available? I feel like I'm at GlockTalk...
    Last edited by opmike; 04-10-10 at 15:25.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    715
    Feedback Score
    0

    Irons

    I shot expert on the KD range course every time with a M16A2.

    Can irons be shot well? Sure.

    Given a choice, no stinkin' way I'd pick irons over a RDS for use on the two way range.

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •