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Thread: How Accurate Of An AR15 Shooter Are You?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.

    I guess i'll be the first to admit there's no way in HADES i can shoot 1 MOA groups at 100m... i can barely see my 1" dot stickers at 50m, and I have "perfect" vision.
    So you have 20/10 (I do)? 20/20 is not "perfect" - it's average. Not looking to argue, I'm just saying that few people know that there's actually better vision than 20/20.

    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    furthermore.... the group number is critically important here, as well. a correct 10-shot group is significantly harder to group than a 5. and most people are usually talking about 3.
    Yep. +1. I will say that holding MOA or better is hard past 5-round groups, but not impossible.
    Last edited by Skyyr; 04-06-10 at 23:28.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Yes, I am, because you said, quote:



    If I'm aiming to kill something or someone, I neither care nor try to make small groups, and neither will anyone who's telling the truth here. Your post is echoing exactly what I said. Making small groups has NOTHING to do with making a shot off-hand. Why ANYONE would casually pick a target then shoot offhand, then measure their group size makes no sense.

    Measuring groups is for precision. If I want to make small groups, I'll take my time and place my shots. If I want to shoot offhand, I don't care what my precision is because my goal is to HIT the target - if I wanted to make small groups, I'd have made sure I had every advantage for precision, including a rest, scope, etc. The shooting you're describing is measured by accuracy, yet you're asking for precision measurements - NO serious shooter is going to even bother based on your pretenses.

    When I actually aim to shoot small groups, I shoot < 1", both with and without irons; and yes, it's very easy with the right ammo. I also have over $4,500 invested in my main AR, so feel free to call me on the B.S. factor again.
    Yes yes we all get it. Point taken about accuracy vs. precision. Accuracy is coming close to hitting the desired target. Precision is having each shot strike near the same place, even if the points of impact are far away from the desired target.

    In the terminology you like to use my question is mostly one of precision... okay?

    Thanks for the invitation to call BS on you again, I accept. I still doubt that you can easily shoot 1 MOA without a bench or scope, even with $4500 in the gun.

  3. #23
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    RRA NM A2 off the bench, front rest, no sling

    Dan Miami, FL

  4. #24
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    I can hit a basketball at:

    500m prone and parade sling
    300m sitting
    40m kneeling in armor
    25m standing in armor

    This is M855 through an issue A4, but the limiting factor is aft of the buttstock.
    عندما تصبح الأسلحة محظورة, قد يملكون حظرون عندهم فقط
    کله چی سلاح منع شوی دی، یوازي غلوونکۍ یی به درلود
    Semper Fi
    "Being able to do the basics, on demand, takes practice. " - Sinister

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    So you have 20/10 (I do)? 20/20 is not "perfect" - it's average. Not looking to argue, I'm just saying that few people know that there's actually better vision than 20/20.
    i say "perfect," and quote it, because thats what i was told at my last test. if you want to get technical in the middle of this thread, the 20' tests are pass/fail, so simply because one passes the 20/20 test doesn't mean they have "20/20 vision," nor that they're limited to that level of visual acuity, and the same for 20/10. IIRC, "average" vision for "healthy" eyes is actually 20/14 or so, if you were to break it down. these people can pass 20/20, but will fail 20/10.

    it's "normal" for a healthy-eyed individual to pass the 20/20, but is not an average, and most people are not "healthy-eyed."

    the visual acuity tests are just markers, not precise measurements of vision... therefor there is no literal "perfect vision," as there is no established maximum.

    my only point was: i have good vision, and i can't see well enough to shoot 1 minute at 100m with irons.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
    Umm, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there, and if that's how you're going about it, it's probably why "there's no way in HADES" you can shoot a1MOA group.

    I regularly post expert scores in HP matches with both my free-floated ARs (5.56 and 6.8) and I can assure you, I cannot "see" and center my post on 1" at 100yds, let alone 2-300. What I can do is put my front sight post at the same point below the "fuzzy gray dot" consistently enough to shoot a decent group if I do my part with trigger and breathing control and position. Consistency is the key.

    I must confess that at 44yrs of age, my particular brand of astigmatism is almost beneficial to rifle shooting (at least with peep sights) as my best focal point happens to coincide with the front sight radius. As a result, I am not tempted to bounce my focus between the sight post and target. I just naturally focus on the front sight and concentrate on the other variables.

  7. #27
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    Pretty much keep em all in the kill zone

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    1 MOA at 100m requires the ability to SEE 1 inch at 100m, and aim at the dead center of it.
    Not really. You simply have to be able to see well enough to pick a consistent aiming point on the target and have good enough fundamentals to break the shot without disrupting the point of aim. Offhand I'm unlikely to shoot 1 MOA with an AR-15. If I managed to shoot 1 MOA or under offhand I would instantly put the rifle away and go buy myself a lottery ticket. From a decent rest with a rifle/ammo combo that's capable of shooting those type of groups (which is going to be the bigger challenge, I would imagine) I could probably pull it off.

    Personally, I spend about 0 minutes worrying about the MOA of my rifle/ammo combination since it's exceedingly rare for me to take a shot beyond 100 yards. Even then, I have yet to actually miss a target because my gun/ammo were not up to the job. Unfortunately every miss I've ever made has been 100% my fault.

    As to the original question:

    It's utterly useless to ask how "accurate" somebody is with an AR-15 absent any sort of standards used to judge accuracy. If there was perhaps a course of fire to use as a reference the question might have some utility. I'll use pistol shooting to show what I mean:

    How "accurate" are you with a pistol?

    ....is a big, open question. How are you defining accuracy here? Are you talking about 25 yard bullseye or something like the FAST drill?

    When shooting at my own pace I can be "accurate":



    Short range (under 10 yards)



    25 yards

    So what does that prove? Absolutely nothing other than that on a good day when going at my own pace I can properly align the sights and properly press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sight picture. Place me under a time constraint where I'm not shooting at my pace and I'm having to worry about more than just the fundamental skills of sight alignment and trigger control and I sure as hell won't be taking any pictures of the results. The pictures indicate my peak performance under my ideal conditions....nothing more.

    To determine my skill level with a pistol it is much more useful to use some standardized drills. The one time I shot the Hackathorn standards, for instance, I scored a 242...by no means a stellar performance. On Ken's 3 second head shot standards I generally barely pass. On the "test" (10 shots at 10 yards in 10 seconds) I generally perform extremely well. On the FAST drill I usually suck donkey balls. With those standards I can measure my performance against others and the viewer can conclude that I can generally exhibit reasonably decent accuracy when I'm at a comfortable pace, but that I fall apart completely when pushed by difficult time constraints.

    Absent those kind of standards it would be easy for me to post the pictures above and make it look like I'm a human ransom rest. (Those who have shot with me know better.)

    ...so if you really want an answer to the question, define some standards. Knowledgeable people will then be able to tell you if your standards are worth anything.
    Last edited by John_Wayne777; 04-07-10 at 08:21.

  9. #29
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    I'm new to ARs and managed to keep most of my rounds in a centered 3-inch group at 100 yards after sighting in my Colt 6920. This is shooting 55g Federals from a rest using an Aimpoint ML2 optic. My groups with iron sights were roughly the same. Although this is nothing special by competitive standards, the range officers indicated that only a handful of their rifle shooters do much better without magnification. I'm betting that a lot of the members of this site fall into the elite category at their respective ranges.
    Last edited by Kool Aid; 04-07-10 at 09:47.

  10. #30
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    Years ago I was into varmint hunting and had a custom AR built that I could consistently shoot dime sized 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

    I have never benched my carbine to see what it could do. A few years ago we were out with some friends shooting at a 100 yard range. I got out my carbine/Aimpoint setup and while standing, could consistenly hit the 4" steel plates that were at the 100 yard line. I was kind of proud of myself until my buddies 15 year old daughter picked up his 20" A2 RRA and started doing the same thing....with iron sights
    "The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." John Steinbeck

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