Serving as a LEO since 1999.
USPSA# A56876 A Class
Firearms Instructor
Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.
And this is the type of misinformation I am talking about. Elite Ammuntion's self defense rounds range from 2100 to 2600 fps FROM the PISTOL. Go the website. FN's anemic ammo available to the public (as I addressed earlier) is the 1700fps (SS197 ammo) -2100fps (SS192 and SS195) ammo that you speak of. Elites S4 super raptor is 2600 fps, many of their other rounds are 2000 fps and beyond. 22 magnums from pistol length barrels are 1300 fps or so, (See Kel-Tec PMR-30). I own a 22 magnum RIFLE and the Five Seven handgun and have tested them on different mediums. No one who has done this would call them even remotely similar. The Secret Service agents inside the White House carry Five Sevens as backups to the P90 bullpup. Im pretty sure its not rabbits they are arming against.
Last edited by Burdy; 06-13-10 at 19:54.
From the website you mention.
FiveseveN Pistol
1,800fps - 385 Ft-Lb’s 55 grain ball
2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s 40 grain Vmax
Color me unimpressed. It still way too light with way too little penetraiton, too little permanent crush cavity. Basically a 22 mag. Give me a 9mm JHP over it any day. This is also assuming those figures are correct. I would like to see some third party verification.
Dr. Fackler on the 5.7
"The article 'FN's FiveseveN System (No.v/Dec. 1999 p.40) seriously misrepresents the wounding capacity of the 31-gr. P90 bullet. Claiming it "produces a wound cavity that is similar to that of the 5.56 mm NATO ammunition is an absurd exaggeration. The 31-gr. P90 bullet has only half the weight of the M16A2 bullet - and its velocity is about 1000 f.p.s. less. (The reference was intended to convey that it is an FMJ design, not that it has equal energy and wounding characteristics to the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. - The Eds).
The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.
The light recoil of the P90 should hardly come as a surprise: The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. The laws of physics cannot be denied - minimal recoil is inconsistent with maximal tissue disruption.
For the military, where any wound is often all that is required to cause an enemy soldier to leave the battlefield, perhaps this tiny P90 bullet is OK. Law enforcement officers are often faced with armed violent criminals at close range. In that scenario, a bullet capable of disrupting a significant amount of tissue is needed: One must incapacitate a criminal, a minor wound will not suffice. By no stretch of the imagination is the P90 bullet adequate for that task.
References for further reading in the Wound Ballistics Review are: Vol. 3, No. 3, 1998 (pp. 36-37) 'Corrections on the Wound Ballistics of the current FN P90 bullet'; Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 (pp. 44-45) "more on the bizarre FN P90'; and Vol. 1., No. 1, 1991 (p. 46) 'Description of the first generation P90.' These may be obtained from the IWBA by calling (310) 640-6065, or its website at www.IWBA.com.
Marvin L. Fackler, MD, FACS,
President, Int'l Wound Ballistics Ass'n.
I also suggest you read this thread right here on m4 carbine.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
Last edited by Alaskapopo; 04-17-10 at 18:50.
Serving as a LEO since 1999.
USPSA# A56876 A Class
Firearms Instructor
Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.
You found their heaviest round and quoted the velocity to attempt to prove your point. Why didn't you just head straight for the subsonics? Also the review you quote is using FN SS190, the EXACT round I quoted as being anemic against soft tissue above. I am 100% positive you have never used a 5.7x28 round in anything other than FN's offerings (go ahead, tell me Im right), or we would not be having this conversation. If mass times velocity was all there was to it, we would all be shooting nothing but 10mm.
Last edited by Burdy; 06-13-10 at 19:53.
If I am not mistaken, havent ALL rounds from all weapons been basically proven useless in most SD cases?
Frankly I would not trust a 20 or 32 grain bullet to do anything but piss an attacker off.
And frankly Muzzle energy is only part of the equation. Momentum is also a huge part of it as well. The equation for momentum is mass times velocity. The 5.7 simply lacks power to penetrate reliably in bone and even in soft tissue to 12 inches. If fails miserably in all of the FBI's tests. Its not even worth considering. I find it amusing that people would consider defending their life with what is essentially a small game hunting round. As for using the 5.7 why would I waste my money on one and ignore the leading experts in the field of terminal performance like Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts. The subsonics in this caliber probably have the best chance of stopping the threat.
Pat
Last edited by Alaskapopo; 04-17-10 at 19:15.
Serving as a LEO since 1999.
USPSA# A56876 A Class
Firearms Instructor
Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.
I agree with Fackler's statements. Not sure why you have not caught on to that yet. Im just telling you that the test was run with about the worst round you can think of in soft tissue from a 5.7. Its like saying a Dodge Caravan is not a fast car to the guy that has one with a viper motor swapped in. Apples to oranges. I dont know why you continue to quote SS190 ballistics only, knowing that is the under performer here.
This is a video of just FN's ANEMIC factory ammo vs 9mm. Elite's offering are leagues above the factory loads. And yes, I know this test means nothing, as the medium is not proper, but you mentioned lack of penetration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4
Last edited by Burdy; 06-13-10 at 19:53.
Actually, just about all AP projectiles yaw in tissue, for example M2, M993, M995—all of which create substantially larger wounds than SS190.”AP rounds are made for piercing armor, not massive tissue damage, although the bullets do tumble and yaw which create larger wounds than other FMJ or AP rounds.”
Actually the projectiles create a larger temporary cavity, not hydrostatic shock; you might wish to read this basic information on wounding mechanism: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714”With the right ammunition, the 5.7x28mm cartridge will travel between 2100 and 2600 fps, a realm that produces severe hydrostatic shock and will produce MASSIVE wound cavities when combined with either hollow point or fragmenting bullets.”
A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm has written:
Pat Rogers, one of the most highly respected firearms trainers in the world, has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 5.7 mm:”The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm systems”
A large Federal agency noted for their P90 adoption is also no longer running 5.7mm’s like they used to given all the numerous deficiencies noted over the last several years of service…” Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available.
To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents.
Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic.
This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties.
The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications.
If there is a single reason why this platform is in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.”
We hope to test the Elite Ammunition 5.7 loads this year. Unfortunately, from what has been released so far, the performance does not look particularly good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOP3u...layer_embedded
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502
If EA ammo is a quantum leap forward, it is somewhat unusual that NO Tier One units, let alone plain green/white SOF units are using it…
Now those are some great reasons for YOU to carry an FN57; it is always a good idea to shoot what is most accurate and reliable for YOU. The one caveat is to make sure you have tested that hypothesis in a demanding training environment, proven over time to offer real world relevance--something like Magpul Dynamics, EAG, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Pistoltraining.com, ITTS, TigerSwan, etc...”In the end, I carry the FN Five Seven every day for a few reasons. It is extraordinarily light for a full size handgun (probably THE lightest), I shoot it better than any other pistol by a LONG shot, its it very controllable under rapid fire, has never failed me and 20+1 goes on forever in a pistol. In short it inspires confidence that I simply cant get anywhere else.”
Last edited by DocGKR; 04-17-10 at 19:58.
DocGKR,
I have read all those reports you have posted, and obviously there is a lot of factual data there, but they are still using FN's offerings, and Im certainly not here to defend FN factory ammo, somehow Im still trying to establish that fact.
I would think it would be obvious that identically jacketed bullets fired from a 5.56 weapon will be more affective than the 5.7 given the differences in weight and velocity. I have in NO WAY suggested otherwise when it comes to RIFLE ballistics. I cant fire a M993 or M995 from a pistol, so that argument is null and void to me.
I do appreciate your method of conversation however and thanks for the post.
Out of curiosity, what is it in the two videos you posted that you find to "not look too good?"
Oh and BTW, I have the "Art of the Dynamic Handgun DVDs, does that count? J/K
Last edited by Burdy; 04-17-10 at 20:12.
Permanent crush cavity seems a bit small and TC is nothing to write home about; hopefully more controlled and accurately measured testing may reveal additional information.
I'm afraid not--you're going to need to get out and run the pistol for a minimum of 300-500 rounds a day over at least 2-3 days to get a sense of how it will do."Oh and BTW, I have the "Art of the Dynamic Handgun DVDs, does that count?"
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