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Thread: ATF knocked on my door...(off topic)

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    How's about taking your family or date to the movies without fear of armed thugs blocking the doors and robbing everyone?
    I usually agree with you Safety but I'm afraid not on this issue.

    What gun law is stopping this from happening right this second?

    Do you think a bunch of thugs are sitting in a room, pissed that they can't go rob a place of business due to a gun law? "Look guys, we can't do the robbery tonight because I'm a convicted felon and I can't legally purchase a gun at the store. Sorry guys, I guess we'll just have to go home."

    Or "Man, where did you get that SBR? I'm sorry, but I am not going to participate in this heist if you are going to use a barrel that is less than 16 inches. I'm sorry, its just too risky."

    The inappropriate usage of guns is illegal and should always be but these other restrictions are bull and do nothing to prevent crime.

    Just like with the Starbucks deal. One of the opposing argument was that people are just going to start shooting each other if you are allowed to carry in the restaurant. That is just plain malarkey.

    Nobody is licking their chops saying "I can't wait for Starbucks to allow me to open carry because I'm going to kill anyone inside that makes me mad."

    Less gun laws does not equate to "Its okay to murder and rob with guns now."
    Last edited by parishioner; 04-12-10 at 12:47.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Do you really understand the implications of this statement? Do you really want to live in essential anarchy? No gun laws for anyone would be just that these days, make no mistake about it.

    Is it truly your desire to spend each day defending your family, property or even neighborhood (perhaps we can establish tribes) against the threat of violence? Can there be civilization without law?

    What about sending your child to a nice school? How's about taking your family or date to the movies without fear of armed thugs blocking the doors and robbing everyone?

    Or I know, maybe you can all shoot it out and see who is left standing. Even better, the survivors will likely get to do it again in some form next week.

    Great way of life, where can I sign up? I am sure my six year old will love the new lifestyle.
    Anarchy is the complete lack of government. Liberty and federalism is a belief that you can largely manage your own life unless you harm someone else. I'm not suggesting we get rid of laws against harming others without cause, I'm just suggesting we string badguys up by their toes and leave the peaceable people be.

    This is the way things used to be in the USA. Historically we even had one state in the union that had NO jails, just fines or the death penalty.

    Ask your local county corrections officer how well laws against driving without an active license are doing, or driving drunk. I heard the other day roughly half of the people in Nevada drive around with no insurance despite a government mandate. Gun laws don't stop things like Virgina Tech, but some "illegal" return fire would have.
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Do you really understand the implications of this statement? Do you really want to live in essential anarchy? No gun laws for anyone would be just that these days, make no mistake about it.
    how did we ever get through the 1800s and early 20th century without these laws. Oh wait we did with some of the greatest prosperity history has ever seen.

    There are a lot more laws in the books than gun/drug laws, it wont be anarchy.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    how did we ever get through the 1800s and early 20th century without these laws. Oh wait we did with some of the greatest prosperity history has ever seen.

    There are a lot more laws in the books than gun/drug laws, it wont be anarchy.
    I know what you mean, I guess some people did not learn anything from prohibition, that surely did not reduce crime and violence, it did create a lucrative black market that thank god we were smart enough to get rid of. No drug laws, well I can drink and smoke legal, taxed drugs and I have the will power not to do those? So I need the government to stop me from everything else? I mean lets see we got the ,DEA,ATF,FDLE(Florida),FBI,Border Patrol, Customs,U.S. Marshals, it can go on and on without all the needless laws, the above gentleman could be reassigned to secure our borders, stop terrorist ect. If people do drugs we eliminate them from any government assistance, except treatment to get off. If you want your unemployment, food stamps, welfare well then you better be drug free.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by jman4427 View Post
    I usually agree with you Safety but I'm afraid not on this issue.

    What gun law is stopping this from happening right this second?

    Do you think a bunch of thugs are sitting in a room, pissed that they can't go rob a place of business due to a gun law? "

    Excellent replies, from all 3 of the previous posters above related to my statement. Very good points made indeed.

    But Armakraut, as you may have pointed out there were two other responses made with a similar mindset to mine, one mentioning being ruled by the Tailban and the other suggesting Somalia. Why did the others say essentially the same as I, are we all ignorant of history?

    Likely not, at least fortunately not myself anyhow. I think we saw a bigger picture being portrayed, at least I did. There is often a mindset behind such posting, but maybe I am stereotyping and should cease without further proof.

    As far as the gun laws, let me ask you all a question. If any gang of criminals could arm themselves as they pleased, this so long as the funding was there and they were not incarcerated, and also carry their weapons around in any city or town at will while traveling in mass, what do you think the societal result would be in 2010?

    And maybe more importantly, what posse are we sending after them after their cartel like crime waves?
    Last edited by Safetyhit; 04-12-10 at 15:06.
    "Facit Omina Voluntas = The Will Decides" - Army Chief


  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    As far as the gun laws, let me ask you all a question. If any gang of criminals could arm themselves as they pleased, this so long as the funding was there and they were not incarcerated, and also carry their weapons around in any city or town at will while traveling in mass, what do you think the societal result would be in 2010?
    they get guns the same way they get it now, despite the laws. Gang members primarily arm themselves to protect themselves from rival gangs, not the police or regular citizens, which brings us back to the drug war. If the drug war was stopped these gangs have nothing valuable to fight over and have little need for weapons. Nothing comes close to how lucrative the illegal drug market is, each gang fights for the power, turf, and money which they need guns for. If the black market profit were taken away, gang members are out of literally out of a job and either have to get a real job or start doing much greater risk low reward crimes like robbery

    I can destroy all the major gangs of the nation without even firing a gunshot, using economics - legalization, regulation, and taxation of drugs. With their cash cow what else will they turn to which can make that amount of money, there isnt anything close.

    Even back in the Wild West days where everyone had a gun the murder rate was VERY low:
    http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...-The-Wild-West
    Last edited by ForTehNguyen; 04-12-10 at 16:05.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Excellent replies, from all 3 of the previous posters above related to my statement. Very good points made indeed.

    But Armakraut, as you may have pointed out there were two other responses made with a similar mindset to mine, one mentioning being ruled by the Tailban and the other suggesting Somalia. Why did the others say essentially the same as I, are we all ignorant of history?

    Likely not, at least fortunately not myself anyhow. I think we saw a bigger picture being portrayed, at least I did. There is often a mindset behind such posting, but maybe I am stereotyping and should cease without further proof.

    As far as the gun laws, let me ask you all a question. If any gang of criminals could arm themselves as they pleased, this so long as the funding was there and they were not incarcerated, and also carry their weapons around in any city or town at will while traveling in mass, what do you think the societal result would be in 2010?

    And maybe more importantly, what posse are we sending after them after their cartel like crime waves?
    Good question. I think the theory is that the cartel would cease to exist, or "go straight" if their product was decriminalized. We would still have police and military, so anarchy would not be likely. I think these points are valid. You could what if every asinine scenario till you die. Sometimes you just have to do. I seriously doubt that we would ever be able to vote ourselves out of this mess, but for the time being it is the first step we can take.
    the government should not be a jobs program nor the peoples thief. We are supposed to have a government OF the people FOR the people.
    Ruby ridge and Waco, forgive the tin foil, are perfect examples of how out of control things have gotten in recent years. There is absolutely no reason to believe that it can't happen again, or to you.

    Btw, I would demand a warrant (politely) for principal and entertainment. Sucks for the guy who posted earlier who lost his dog over a bs swat/cps raid though.
    "Oh, its a wonderful day! My sun is shining, my birds are chirping, my humongous chicken defeated Elmo." Huxley

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Excellent replies, from all 3 of the previous posters above related to my statement. Very good points made indeed.

    But Armakraut, as you may have pointed out there were two other responses made with a similar mindset to mine, one mentioning being ruled by the Tailban and the other suggesting Somalia. Why did the others say essentially the same as I, are we all ignorant of history?

    Likely not, at least fortunately not myself anyhow. I think we saw a bigger picture being portrayed, at least I did. There is often a mindset behind such posting, but maybe I am stereotyping and should cease without further proof.

    As far as the gun laws, let me ask you all a question. If any gang of criminals could arm themselves as they pleased, this so long as the funding was there and they were not incarcerated, and also carry their weapons around in any city or town at will while traveling in mass, what do you think the societal result would be in 2010?
    Probably a lot less than you might think, because it's pretty close to that now. Someone willing to break the law can have any weapon they can pay for, right now.

    I suspect the result would be similar to other such prohibitionist experiments - a 6-12 month spike in crime, followed by a steady decline to far lower than ban levels.

  9. #159
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    Asked, answered, horse beaten, flogged, flayed.
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