Four Years Ago Today...

[Low Drag]

OK everyone, put you tampons back on and stop your rants. Here are some facts:

1. This has been the most successful war in US history. YES, MAJOR OPERATIONS WERE OVER WHEN HE ANNOUNCED IT. The operations going on currently in Iraq do not require as much hardware as the first phase. BTW, a lower level officer thought up the banner and wanted to hang it for morale. So the "Evil "Mr" Bush", thinking that his troops deserved the credit, allowed the banner to go up. Shame on our President for obliging them .

2. We have accomplished ALL of the goals we initially set out to accomplish. And bringing Democracy to Iraq is crucial, but not the be-all end-all.

3. WWII has been over for a long time. NEWS FASH: we are still in Germany, France, England, Japan, Italy, and several other nations that we were not in before the war.

4. After WWII, we kept on fighting, feeding money by the hundred millions to fledgling democracies, and getting our people killed. It was called the cold war for those who have been asleep for the past 50 years!

5. Technically, the Korean War has not ended.

6. The only war the USA has ever "lost" was started by a democrat (JFK) and lost by popular opinion only. We have never lost because we couldn't win. We lost because we gave up. Some assholes never learn from history. And now our enemies use that loss as a source of hope every time the US gets in a conflict.

7. "The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II, irrespective of political alignment, was roughly 72 million people. The civilian toll was around 46 million, including about 20 million due to war related famine and disease. The military toll about 26 million, including about 5 million prisoners of war. The Allies lost around 61 million people, and the Axis lost 11 million." The USA lost about 418,500. Does anyone think WWII was a mistake or that we should have surrendered?

The way I look at it, we have about 415,000 more deaths to incurr on our side before I get concerned. If WWII is the war you all feel patriotic about, watch movies about, brag about, and share grandpa and dad stories about, then that is the death standard we should accept. Any death more than that war is unacceptable and any less is acceptable. So go back to your dreams of a perfect world where are wars are over in a week and no one gets hurt.

And for those who think it matters....yes, I do have family in Iraq today and some that just ended thier tours in the past 2 months. And no, I did not serve for medical reasons, but would go if ordered and allowed.





PS... I hear that 3 out of 4 war protestors wanted to start a pessimist club, but they all decided it would never work. Maybe they just didn't have some of the membership here to get it done?

+2 on putting the tampons back in the wrapper!

I really have to wonder about folks who CAN NOT understand the difference between fighting the nation of Iraq under Saddam and fighting AQ after the war.

We fought to liberate the Philippines in WWII but there are some AQ supporters there now. In fact we've assisted the military there in going after them. Does that mean WWII in was a failure?

I would like to see some of the folks that can't get this conflict to spend a little more time gaining a historical perspective of the conflict surrounding islam since it's inception. I just can't believe a person could have a reasonable working knowledge of history and come to the conclusion that this is some how a new conflict that would go away if we left the ME. To the point move into their junior year and drop the sophomoric straw man arguments.

[Bushytale]

good points Joseywales and Low Drag. If we leave now we are the big losers. We gave up in VN and the communists took over immediately. If we leave Iraq now we can hand the keys to the oil to Iran on the way out. Yes the plan has not gone well. Cut the PC bullcrap. Unleash the full capability of our military and let's "git er done". GW apparently does not get the concept of sealing borders, neither here nor there. Tell Iran, cut it out or we will spank you!

just my .02 Billy

[Bolt_Overide]

I don't want to stir s*** on my first post, but i can't help but laugh at the last posts. Or should I cry? Did I read you right? You need 415k more of our brothers to die before you get concerned?
Heres a fact for you.
We are losing more troops each month now than we ever did during the MAJOR OPERATIONS as you and W put it. I'd say that is pretty major fact. Maybe it should have been mentioned in one of your numbered points.

Bottom line is I just don't beleive that 1 single Marine or soldier's life is worth the freedom of an Iraqi, sorry. Not one more. Fight for that shit yourself Iraq. Lives are cheap over there and its obvious they don't respect authority unless that authority is violently oppressing them.

I grew up as a Navy brat and am a civilian employee of the DOD so I know the family that is the military and I do believe that if there is any American in harms way everything possible should be done to protect and assist in their duties. I would never protest our gov while our troops are in battle but I think W is inept even though I'm a lifelong republican that voted twice for W and will still vote the repub ticket. So please don't try to make this issue out like we're some sort of antiwar hippies just because we hold W and the Iraq gov responsible for their failures.

I get kind of fired up over the issue because my little brother was blown off the top of his HumV in fallujah and is permanently disabled. He's good now and luckily no brain damage, but will always have a 10 inch scar on his dome and titanium fasteners in his skull to prove just what W accomplished.

No offense dude, but you dont know shit. Until youve been over there, seen whats going on, and dont get your opinions from the liberal news, youre not going to know shit. There are some serious asshats in iraq, but there are also a lot of good people, who are grateful we are there to help them. To say let them earn their own freedom is pretty ****ing arrogant of you, considering you never earned yours.

Ask your brother how he feels, even given what happened to him, would he change it?

[rob_s]

Yes, you read me right. 425k more of MY brothers and cousins must die before I think this war is anything close to a failure. Sorry to hear about your brother, but his misfourtune means nothing to the worthiness of this war. Soldiers die and soldiers get wounded. It is the nature of the job. Only losers judge success by the ease of the task and the stumblings along the way. Those people are called quitters. They are the reason our nation has a welfare system.

Until I hear the hypocrite democrats use words to describe this war like "Victory" and "plan for winning", President George Bush is the best we got.

I'm curious, what branch of the military are you currently serving with and how many times have you been deployed?

[rob_s]

+2 on putting the tampons back in the wrapper!

I really have to wonder about folks who CAN NOT understand the difference between fighting the nation of Iraq under Saddam and fighting AQ after the war.

We fought to liberate the Philippines in WWII but there are some AQ supporters there now. In fact we've assisted the military there in going after them. Does that mean WWII in was a failure?

I would like to see some of the folks that can't get this conflict to spend a little more time gaining a historical perspective of the conflict surrounding islam since it's inception. I just can't believe a person could have a reasonable working knowledge of history and come to the conclusion that this is some how a new conflict that would go away if we left the ME. To the point move into their junior year and drop the sophomoric straw man arguments.

Your argument goes both ways. If one truly understands the history of the region then one would know that it has always been in turmoil. The argument comes from what causes this turmoil, and it's very easy to come to the conclusion that outside influence causes the turmoil. This goes all the way back to the crusades.

[Snake RAH]

I'm curious, what branch of the military are you currently serving with and how many times have you been deployed?

Wow, I didn't know we were going to have a DD214 check. I guess I'll have to drop out of the thread now since I wasn't deployed for THIS war, and obviously am not allowed to comment on it.

[rob_s]

Wow, I didn't know we were going to have a DD214 check. I guess I'll have to drop out of the thread now since I wasn't deployed for THIS war, and obviously am not allowed to comment on it.

It wasn't directed at you. I just find it interesting to know people's backgrounds when they're volunterring 400k people to die. It helps to know if they're one of those 400k or not.

Frankly, that's the problem in general. Too many people that were never there and didn't do that making decisions about where to go and what to do.

[C4IGrant]

The reason why George had to go into Iraq is very simple. The worlds oil supply which has about 10 to 15 years left (you go do some research on that if you want) is going to need to be controlled by us if you want to keep the shit from hitting the fan. Our freedom loving, flag waving, apple pie eatin way of life depends upon the production and refinement of oil. Iraq sits upon the largest untapped oil wells Suadi arabia has the 2nd. Anyway you look at it, the troops are there to keep all us soft bunch of webaholics living good. Thats why we will not leave Iraq until the oil is gone, then we will have to go fight for the next oil well. Irans oil supply already peaked, the only threat George sees from them is that they try and take the Iraqi or Saudi Oil fields. So chill out brothers in arms cause this has to be done if you want to keep your way of life as you have known it so far. But, I personally think something bad is going to happen in a few years. There are just to many variables to go wrong. God be with all your families.

This is a very good point and one that I agree with. I am all for us controlling things. I guess you have to look at it this way, would you rather have a terrorist supporting Dictator watching over the majority of the worlds oil or us???



C4

[Business_Casual]

It wasn't directed at you. I just find it interesting to know people's backgrounds when they're volunterring 400k people to die. It helps to know if they're one of those 400k or not.

Frankly, that's the problem in general. Too many people that were never there and didn't do that making decisions about where to go and what to do.

The sign that points to Toledo doesn't have to go there to be correct. I don't have to be heroin junkie to know that using heroin isn't a good idea. Etc, etc...

M_P

[Low Drag]

Your argument goes both ways. If one truly understands the history of the region then one would know that it has always been in turmoil. The argument comes from what causes this turmoil, and it's very easy to come to the conclusion that outside influence causes the turmoil. This goes all the way back to the crusades.

Your last sentence illustrates that lack of historical perspective I was referring to. The turmoil you refer to goes back well before the crusades, which by any definition was a counter offensive.

The argument that the war to depose Saddam is still going is fatuous at best. Even the most ignorant person should know AQ got the insurgency going in the summer of 2003 (and the DOD failed to call it an insurgency and act accordingly).

Here's an analogy; The French and Indian War went on and off for about 100 years because what we call the Revolution, War of 1812 and the Civil War were fought over the same land by white Christian men.

Clearly there were different players and motivations in each war. Just as there was in Iraq in the spring of 2003 and then it changed in the summer of 2003. To not recognize that is to not understand the conflict and your enemy, e.g. it's the way to failure.