Pistol Caliber Carbines

**PA PATRIOT** · 04-12-10, 12:14

Recently in my area there has been a large increase of Ruger Pistol Caliber Carbines hitting the FFL's as local departments switch over to AR's. Looking at past armed conflicts one can see were pistol caliber carbines were used by most of the major powers from WWII until Vietnam and today many police departments still use the MP-5 or Car-9.

Now before everyone jumps in with its better to use a 5.56, 6.8, 7.62 for a gun fight I already totally agree 100% with that recommendation. My contention is that there must be a valid use for such pistol caliber carbines even if its only over that of a handgun with its enhanced accuracy and slightly longer effective range in todays world.

Looking at what my Ruger PC-9 carbine can do with +P or +P+ ammunition it appears with my set-up accurate hits to 150yds can be made with ease and with modern bonded bullets one would not have to worry about close impacts at the higher carbine velocities fragmenting the bullet and retarding penetration.

Now I don't know what the engineered expansion window is for the bonded bullets in Doc's recommended list is but I think it would be safe to say that the higher velocities from a 16" barrel would extend the range over a handgun that the bullet would expand some what, plus past that expansion window one still has a .355 caliber hole poker out to as far as one can hit.

Accuracy should be better over range when compared to a handgun so with all the pluses what is the negative side of pistol caliber carbines in 9mm, .40S&W or .45acp?

**jeff3vvv** · 04-12-10, 13:27

I had some Double Tap 357 Sig Gold Dot 115 grains that came out of a Storm Lake 5.19" ported barrel at a little over 1600fps. In my VERY INFORMAL milk jug water testing at about 20', that load blew up the first 2 jugs, and dented/slightly cracked the back of the 4th. IMO, out of a 16" barrel a +P+ bonded 115grain 9mm would probably look something like that. This is of course just a guess based on remembering reading somewhere that someone was getting near that velocity from a carbine. From my limited experience the performance was closer to what I've seen 64grain Federal non bonded .223 do than what my standard pressure 9 115/124/125 grain does. Based on what I've seen in living tissue I think it could be possible that the temp stretch out of a 16" carbine with +P+ 115 or +P+ 124/125 9mm MIGHT come into play.

I realize this is very informal and extremely unscientific, but I thought I'd put it up in case one of the experts didn't respond with real terminal testing.

**Fail-Safe** · 04-12-10, 15:03

Aesthetics, price per unit, price for ammo, and just plain ignorance.

**sff70** · 04-13-10, 15:16

Nobody is using them, or wants them, because anything a PCC can do, a M4 type carbine can do better.

A PCC still shoots a pistol cartridge.

AFAIK, you need to be well over 2200 fps before temp cavity effects cause damage in non-elastic tissue.

**tpd223** · 04-14-10, 19:51

I have a friend who is a trauma surgeon who has relayed that he has noted some stellate tearing in tissue on folks shot with hotter .357mag JHPs, 10mm, etc.
I also noted that he isn't at all sure there was enough of an effect to add or contribute to incapacitation.

Anyway........ I just bought a Kel Tec sub 2000 in the Glock 9mm magazine model. So far it feeds everything and has gone about 500 rounds without cleaning or any stoppages.
That this little gun is very easy to shoot well and folds into a book-bag if need be is rather cool IMHO.

I would rather gunfight with an M4 any day of the week over using a sub-gun or PCC, but I'd also much rather gunfight using a PCC than a pistol.

**PA PATRIOT** · 04-15-10, 11:50

Originally Posted by tpd223

I would rather gunfight with an M4 any day of the week over using a sub-gun or PCC, but I'd also much rather gunfight using a PCC than a pistol.

My thinking exactly, kind of a in between option for those who cant travel with a M-4 or folder AK due to their size/weight or local legal restrictions but want more then just a handgun. I also have a Kel-Tec 9mm Glock magazine carbine plus the little nylon case that it fits into and I use it for traveling & family vacations.

Some places you just can't tote a battle rifle into and thats were a folding PPC comes into play. Now I'M not saying I would ever want to substitute a PPC over a battle rifle if I knew I was going into a gunfight but a folding well camouflaged PPC like the compact Kel-Tec which bends perfectly on your person while in its nylon case (Looks like a small Web-Book Case) or conceals with your normal luggage gives you a option over a handgun with the right bonded +P or +P+ ammunition.

One area I have to investigate is the federal law which allows active law enforcement to carry in any state, now I know we have to abide to what the local restrictions are in terms of magazine capacity and ammunition type for your pistol which is no big deal if you pre-plan your travel route out but I never did read anything if long guns like the M-4 are covered by the same Federal law? Just guessing but one maybe able to explain a PCC like the Kel-Tec which uses the same Glock Magazine and ammunition as your pistol easier then a M-4 in a Hostile state like New Jersey or New York.

If anyone has input about long longs and the federal carry law please chime in.

**Beat Trash** · 04-15-10, 13:51

Originally Posted by Phila PD

My thinking exactly, kind of a in between option for those who cant travel with a M-4 or folder AK due to their size/weight or local legal restrictions but want more then just a handgun. I also have a Kel-Tec 9mm Glock magazine carbine plus the little nylon case that it fits into and I use it for traveling & family vacations.

Some places you just can't tote a battle rifle into and thats were a folding PPC comes into play. Now I'M not saying I would ever want to substitute a PPC over a battle rifle if I knew I was going into a gunfight but a folding well camouflaged PPC like the compact Kel-Tec which bends perfectly on your person while in its nylon case (Looks like a small Web-Book Case) or conceals with your normal luggage gives you a option over a handgun with the right bonded +P or +P+ ammunition.

One area I have to investigate is the federal law which allows active law enforcement to carry in any state, now I know we have to abide to what the local restrictions are in terms of magazine capacity and ammunition type for your pistol which is no big deal if you pre-plan your travel route out but I never did read anything if long guns like the M-4 are covered by the same Federal law? Just guessing but one maybe able to explain a PCC like the Kel-Tec which uses the same Glock Magazine and ammunition as your pistol easier then a M-4 in a Hostile state like New Jersey or New York.

If anyone has input about long longs and the federal carry law please chime in.

HR218 covers long guns, if I remember correctly, check section (e).

**tpd223** · 04-17-10, 23:39

Does anyone know of gelatin testing done from a 16" barreled 9mm?

I'm curious, now that I bought the sub 2000, what some of the better duty style loads would do from a rifle length gun.