Multiple targets: lead with the eyes or lead with the muzzle?

[rob_s]

When transitioning from target to target do you lead with the eyes or lead with the muzzle? Is it different with a handgun than it is with a carbine? Iron sights vs. optics? Magnified vs. RDS?

[Joeywhat]

I've always led with the eyes. I look at my next target and the weapon comes into alignment naturally. I do this with handgun and carbine.

I don't use magnified glass on my fightin' guns so no comment there.

[NCPatrolAR]

Lead with the eyes. How do you realize you have an additional threat to shoot? You have to see it; so naturally you would lead with your eyes

Also; when you lead with your eyes you know exactly where to stop the gun versus leading with the muzzle and overswinging the target.

[Shawn.L]

I can only speak for pistols.

Lead with the eyes.

Now, to be clear, you do not look to the next target and then follow with the muzzle. Move both, but the eyes will get there faster. And so you snap youe eyes and haul ass to the next spot. Its just like on a first shot from the draw, you look at where the bullet is gonna land and bring the sights into line with it.

A good practice on target transistions is to set up 2 targets and shoot one once then the other. Check your timer. Now start trying to cut 10th's off that time. Once you can get it down put up 3 targets. On dry fire at home I practice dropping the hammer on one target and as soon as it drops snapping my eyes to the next target while i haul ass and simulating reseting.

Where I had issue originally was in my trigger reset. A lot of people do. I was originally taught to let my sights come back down AND THEN reset. But this isnt necissary. I can reset after the sights left up off the target, and I can also start to move then so that ideally you can reset and move during recoil and get to the next target prepping the trigger for the next shot and ready to squeeze as you arrive. If we are talking gun games thats a given, in the real world, if your not sure that second figure needs shot I would not want to practice that trigger prep. Of course now a slew of questions regarding multiple attackers and making the decision to shoot arrise. But if your starting goal is to hit 2 targets as fast as possible, reset on the move is prime.

I will still reset after the sights come down on distance or high accuracy shots.

[misanthropist]

Lead with the eyes is what I've been taught and actually the instructor I go to regularly does "eyes-up" drills regularly to ensure that we're leading with our eyes.

I would guess the idea here is to ID the target before pointing a gun at it, either for safety reasons or to avoid wasted motion if the target-looking thing you are picking up in your peripheral vision is actually just a sunny patch of wall that happens to look targety, but isn't worth shooting once you get a good look at it.

However, I am not an expert and would be open to hearing arguments for doing the reverse.


For example, I guess if you are doing a drill where you know for sure that there are a certain number of targets in a certain arrangement, and nothing else, then leading with the muzzle would be fine.

In reality, though, I would think that you should generally be in the habit of pointing your eyes around first, then pointing your gun around at whatever looked like it needed more holes than it's got.

But as I like to point out, I am a recreational shooter with an interest in self-defense, not a professional shooter, high-level competitor or high-speed LEO or .mil guy. I would describe myself as a "subject matter dilettante".

[VMI-MO]

Always lead with eyes. No matter what the system.

I am always faster and more accurate this way.

I have found that I can tell when I lead with my muzzle because I am having to constantly compensate for over swing on the target.


PJ

[RogerinTPA]

Always lead with eyes. No matter what the system.

I am always faster and more accurate this way.

I have found that I can tell when I lead with my muzzle because I am having to constantly compensate for over swing on the target.


PJ

Agreed. Same here. I always lead with the eyes with the optic immediately behind.

[Nick S]

Eyes
Head
Body
Gun

As needed for the transition.

[Failure2Stop]

We must perceive and identify before engaging.

It also helps with preventing over-swing.

[Zhurdan]

We must perceive and identify before engaging.

It also helps with preventing over-swing.

POODA perhaps? Just learned that little gem in the Magpul class. I do believe it's kind of a natural progression for pistol shooters, but the carbine takes a bit of focus, especially if you're moving left to right and are right handed. With a pistol, you can see over anything, with optics, they tend to get in the way when moving left to right. I don't know how sound of advice this is, so I offer it up for discussion. I was once told during some pistol training, that when moving away from a threat, you should move to the left if they are right handed, as it is more or less, unnatural for the shooter to track that way, being their "support eye" is on the opposite side. It kinds makes sense, because you're moving away from the field of view, but either way, anyone with a bit of skill is going to track you anyways. I do, when shooting multiple pistol targets, the peripheral comes into play.

As to the topic at hand, I thing your body moves far faster than can be dictated by any "mantra". You see what you see because you're body does so. When shooting a carbine, on the clock, my eyes see and remember what it is I'm going to shoot (paper targets of course), and there's no need for tracking over the sights or with the sights. You already know where they are. My point being... this may be a severe disadvantage in a real world gun fight, had the need arise. Training is crucial, but how do you train your eyes to move with real moving people? As to Rob's question, I thing Force on force is about the only way to get a good feel for it. People will move far more than any paper target, even the moving kind, than can be simulated with paper and flinging lead at them. I've never done it (F on F), but by damn, it piqued my interest. Thank you.