Irons vs. Reddots

[lanceriley]

I think im a better shot with irons!

I started with irons. been shooting irons for like.. 5years! then came the red dot. maybe I just haven't gotten the hang of a red dot.

[tommyrott]

i vote for iron for more experienced shooters, red dot for virgins to shooting. i have been shooting 3gun for the last year having abysmal luck with a scope, finally sat down and got a proper 25 meter zero with my iron sights, showed up at the match and saw that the first stage had a 240 yard target and like a moron put my scope back on and proceeded to squander 24 rnds figuring out that my scope was no longer zeroed. ate big penalty on missed rifle targets, got to check my irons after every one was done, nailed the 240 first shot and stayed with irons for the rest of the match. i was able to make hits on bowling pins out to 100 yards almost always on the first shot my paper score also dramatically improved over past matches, yes i was slower but i didn't waste as much ammo banging away at missed targets. so if you can shoot don't knock irons but if your teaching someone new to shooting i think building their confidence is more important than overloading them with how to shoot irons on the first session.

[Mac5.56]

As a mechanical engineering student with a parent that is a civil engineer, I think you're painting universities (at least ones that are decent) with too broad a brush. But I don't want to hi-jack this thread any further.

As an off again, on again adjunct who comes from a family of professors I don't. The change is well documented, and very controversial at the moment.

[kwelz]

Wow. I didn't mean to stir up this much shit. I just wondered why I was hitting better with Irons!.

[Surf]

Wow. I didn't mean to stir up this much shit. I just wondered why I was hitting better with Irons!.

Your not stirring shit up. It is good conversation and for myself, I appreciate others points of view. Even if we may disagree on certain things at least it may give us reason to re-evaluate status-quo, which IMO is a good thing.

As for your question, I see what is happening to you often enough to have come to my opinion. From my experience, the irons force people to put more focus into all of their fundamentals and not take them so much for granted because of the inherent ease of the red dot. This is very similar to guys who seem to shoot better with their support hand. Because they are taking their time to focus on their basics.

YMMV

[Redhat]

I'm with Surf and my experience is the same. When all we taught werre irons (M16A2) it wasn't a big deal. Since moving to the Aimpoint, our biggest problems are with shooting the BUIS portion of qualification.

I agree irons should be learned first, if time/resources allow, for the same reasons he mentioned.

As to Rob S's comments; are those folks poo-pooing the use of irons on their handguns? If they have the patience to learn that I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do the same on a long gun.

[variablebinary]

I just did weapons qual with an M16A2.

Irons were slower, but the accuracy was certainly there. Once I was dialed I could hit pop ups at 300 meters all day

No question that I would rather have an aimpoint when deployed...and an M4. That point and click optic interface is just more conducive to fighting IMHO

[Redhat]

I just did weapons qual with an M16A2.

Irons were slower, but the accuracy was certainly there. Once I was dialed I could hit pop ups at 300 meters all day

No question that I would rather have an aimpoint when deployed...and an M4. That point and click optic interface is just more conducive to fighting IMHO

Nice to know if you have to use the irons you can!

[Surf]

No question that I would rather have an aimpoint when deployed...and an M4. That point and click optic interface is just more conducive to fighting IMHO

No arguments here.

[MistWolf]

You can bemoan the state of the universe all you want, but it's the reality that I face at the range every first Tuesday night of the month for the last 2+ years when I supervise 15-25 other shooters on the line at our practice night. Putting a gun with an RDS in their hands increases their hit probability, removes one aspect of an often overwhelming experience so they can focus on other fundamentals, and most importantly increases their enjoyment. They don't have to be there, and if you make it hard for them to perform well they simply won't come back.

One can either stamp their feet and hop up and down and get dogmatic about how they think other people should learn and what those people's intended application is, or you can face reality, accept the fact that they will progress further faster with an RDS, and get them hooked before lecturing them on what they should do. There is always time to learn irons later, and the idea that somehow not knowing how to use iron sights (which, BTW, isn't rocket surgery and most will figure out on their own how to use them in a pinch) is going to result in the death of a non-LE civilian is pretty far fetched if you think about it for a second.

Don't confuse making things easy for new shooters with saying that learning irons at all has no place. I just think the idea that learning irons first is a requirement is antiquated hogwash. This is not basic training and I am not a drill instructor.

From your description, the instruction you're offering is more of a recreational introduction rather than the teaching of a life-long skill. Using an Red Dot to keep it interesting and fun fulfills the mission nicely