Irons vs. Reddots

[hatt]

Let me offer this analogy. Not asking anyone to agree, just something to think about.

We don't teach our little leaguer's a back hand toss to get someone out. Nor do we teach them to make a throw to first base from a seated position or flat on their back, but instead we teach them optimum positions and body mechanics. They learn optimum foot placement, body position, foot movements and glove positioning when they are about to receive the ball in their glove. We teach them how to properly grip the ball to get it out of their glove to prepare for the throw. We teach them correct or optimal throwing mechanics. Where their arm needs to be, body position, when and where to release the ball and follow through.

All of this attention to detail at the start of their career and learning process ingrains the fundamentals so that they can perform them without thinking. They then go on to apply these fundamentals in practice games, which we call training and learn to recognize their own individual abilities which they then go on to adapt to the basic fundamentals which they learned. The kids that excel are those who learn to adapt their own skills around the base fundamentals and not those who attempt to reinvent or circumvent the proven fundamentals. As I mentioned earlier, even the accomplished players find themselves in a slump and it is often good to revisit the basics.

So yes, when teaching we need to take into account each persons individuality, how they learn, etc and adapt our styles as persons giving instruction, however we need to keep it in our minds that the teaching of the proper fundamentals and their application from the start is a critical piece of the puzzle.

I am not here to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do, but this is the basis of my own personal opinion. Doesn't matter if it is shooting or T-ball learning the fundamentals in the most correct manner is key to true success.

But are iron sights really a required fundamental to shooting a rifle/carbine? If all you plan on using is some sort of optic are you really handicapped by not "mastering" iron sights? Using another sports example: dribbling up the court under pressure is fundamental if you are a ball handler. If you are a 7 ft center, it's not an issue whether you can or can't. It's not going to come into play. That sure doesn't make you a poor center if you don't have that ability which is fundamental to some positions.

[MistWolf]

But are iron sights really a required fundamental to shooting a rifle/carbine? If all you plan on using is some sort of optic are you really handicapped by not "mastering" iron sights? Using another sports example: dribbling up the court under pressure is fundamental if you are a ball handler. If you are a 7 ft center, it's not an issue whether you can or can't. It's not going to come into play. That sure doesn't make you a poor center if you don't have that ability which is fundamental to some positions.

Learning iron sights is fundamental. It teaches you good form. From there, you can learn to mount your weapon quickly with good form. Good form is essential to making fast shots with or without sights because when you bring your weapon to bear it's already aligned with your target.

I'm not a basketball player, but it seems to me that while dribbling up the center under pressure isn't a fundamental, good dribbling skills are. If you cannot dribble, you cannot dribble under pressure. Can one be a good center without being able to dribble?

[CarlosDJackal]

it's not, but your irons are more reliable and allows you to learn the finer points of marksmanship. IMO.

I have to disagree with this. From my limited experience (9+ years as a Basic Pistol Rifle Instructor not counting my military experience as my Unit's Marksmanship Officer), the red dot has a lot of merit when training brand new shooters.

What I have found it having new shooter use an RDS first has increased their ability to understand and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship for both pistol and rifle. My theory (based only on my limited experience) is that this happens because the student can learn the proper trigger manipulation without worrying about sight picture and sight alignment. Then once you put them on iron sights, they are not overwhelmed by the need to perform these fundamentals perfectly.

This is the same technique that was used when I attended Flight School at Fort Rucker, AL. During the first day of hands-on training, the IP let us first handle one control at a time so that we are better aware of what each control (Collective, Cyclic, and Anti-torque Pedals) does with relation to your aircraft's attitude. YMMV.

[Surf]

But are iron sights really a required fundamental to shooting a rifle/carbine? If all you plan on using is some sort of optic are you really handicapped by not "mastering" iron sights? Using another sports example: dribbling up the court under pressure is fundamental if you are a ball handler. If you are a 7 ft center, it's not an issue whether you can or can't. It's not going to come into play. That sure doesn't make you a poor center if you don't have that ability which is fundamental to some positions.

I gave my opinion on this one, but I will expand. A long range precision shooter / sniper / counter sniper will primarily us an optic. Even though they use an optic there are many fundamentals that are key to being successful. Their stance (body position), grip on the rifle, sight alignment (not a dual sight obviously), sight picture, trigger control, breathing and follow through are all highly critical. Sure they could learn it on an optic, but are they truly going to be a well rounded and highly skilled shooter? Perhaps, but I will guarantee you that they will have a much greater chance of being a success or going farther with the skills, having mastered the fundamentals in a better proven fashion.

Not everyone needs to agree and not everyone will fit into the same mold as everyone else. However there is a far far greater chance of being great and not just mediocre or having a specialized skill, for a far far greater percentage of the population by doing a correct progression of fundamentals. Again IMO iron sights forces a shooter to maintain stricter adherence to these fundamentals by having to maintain an alignment of a front and a rear sight. It shows us our weakness much better and forces us to concentrate and apply the fundamentals in a better or more correct manner.

As for your basketball analogy, no he wouldn't be a poor center because he can't dribble so well, but will he ever be as great of a center as he could be, if he would have learned to dribble as a basic fundamental instead of relying only on his height? Because he was tall and could out rebound everyone, he was not forced to learn other important fundamentals. Instant gratification, just like a red dot.

Sure he can get by and even play pro as there are centers who can't dibble, but this would be an exception and not a rule. As a rule more success would come from more people and he would have been a better center if he would have learned and mastered the fundamentals such as dribbling the ball.

[MistWolf]

I have to disagree with this. From my limited experience (9+ years as a Basic Pistol Rifle Instructor not counting my military experience as my Unit's Marksmanship Officer), the red dot has a lot of merit when training brand new shooters.

What I have found it having new shooter use an RDS first has increased their ability to understand and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship for both pistol and rifle. My theory (based only on my limited experience) is that this happens because the student can learn the proper trigger manipulation without worrying about sight picture and sight alignment. Then once you put them on iron sights, they are not overwhelmed by the need to perform these fundamentals perfectly.

This is the same technique that was used when I attended Flight School at Fort Rucker, AL. During the first day of hands-on training, the IP let us first handle one control at a time so that we are better aware of what each control (Collective, Cyclic, and Anti-torque Pedals) does with relation to your aircraft's attitude. YMMV.

I see your point

As for your basketball analogy, no he wouldn't be a poor center because he can't dribble so well, but will he ever be as great of a center as he could be, if he would have learned to dribble as a basic fundamental instead of relying only on his height? Because he was tall and could out rebound everyone, he was not forced to learn other important fundamentals. Instant gratification, just like a red dot.

Sure he can get by and even play pro as there are centers who can't dibble, but this would be an exception and not a rule. As a rule more success would come from more people and he would have been a better center if he would have learned and mastered the fundamentals such as dribbling the ball.

That answers that question. I do not know enough about basketball to say a Center has to know how to dribble. I would have told you all basketball players have to know how to dribble to play as a pro

[Surf]

What I have found it having new shooter use an RDS first has increased their ability to understand and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship for both pistol and rifle. My theory (based only on my limited experience) is that this happens because the student can learn the proper trigger manipulation without worrying about sight picture and sight alignment. Then once you put them on iron sights, they are not overwhelmed by the need to perform these fundamentals perfectly.

Interesting as my experiences are exactly opposite. I have found that shooters do not get a true understanding of the fundamentals from a red dot first. I generally find that with the instant amount of immediate gratification that they get with the ease of the red dot, most shooters, especially cops, being hard headed, don't react well when going what they consider "backward" and reverse learning by going to irons. They just go through the motions, don't put forth enough concentration or dedication to learning the skills and are just waiting to put that dot back on the rifle. Hence they never truly accept to learning the fundamentals and mastering them. Again this is a generalization and not everyone will fit into one standard. But this is an overwhelming majority from what I see.

Again from what I have experienced, the irons and the need to be perfect, produces much more sound results and better shooters. Perhaps I expect too much, but I can see the dramatic difference in the guys who have gone this route with going back to basics as opposed to the guys who have gone through with going straight to the dot.

[Surf]

That answers that question. I do not know enough about basketball to say a Center has to know how to dribble. I would have told you all basketball players have to know how to dribble to play as a pro

They should know how and they should have learned these basic fundamentals but their height allowed them to be specialized and to get away without the need to be well rounded. But who cares when they are playing pro ball anyway. However they are definitely not the norm. And yes there are pro centers who can't dribble the ball down the court to save their own life.

[Jay Cunningham]

Learning iron sights is fundamental. It teaches you good form. From there, you can learn to mount your weapon quickly with good form. Good form is essential to making fast shots with or without sights because when you bring your weapon to bear it's already aligned with your target.

Red dots allow you to engage threats in situations where you wouldn't normally be able to employ irons. If you are shooting from behind or around certain cover your dot (essentially parallax-free) may be at the far edge of your tube - but you can still hit.

Try that with irons.

[hatt]

You guys missed the key to the basketball player analogy. Bringing the ball up the court. A ball handler. You might see a true center try it from time to time but rest assured the coach is about to stroke. A couple dribbles around the basket during a move is not a ball handler.

Back to the topic. I shot rifles and shotguns with iron sights for 25 years before I finally got an EOTech about 3 years ago. Never had an optic of any kind. The sight was a revelation with defensive style shooting. Everything was faster. Maybe it was because of all the time with irons but I don't know. Since we are talking defense I certainly believe someone starting with a RDS would be ahead of someone starting with irons. With similar talent and time in the RDS guy will probably always be ahead in the defensive area.

[Surf]

Red dots allow you to engage threats in situations where you wouldn't normally be able to employ irons. If you are shooting from behind or around certain cover your dot (essentially parallax-free) may be at the far edge of your tube - but you can still hit.

Try that with irons.

Agreed.