Pelvic vs Head Shots Continued - Training Observations

[RSA-OTC]

Back in February I started a thread called "Failure to Stop, Head or Pelvic Shot, whats a guy/gal to do?" https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47447.
In this thread we discussed the pro's and con's of either a Stop Failure drill using Head or Pelvic Shots. Head Shots pretty much won the day in this debate and I am not looking to start the debate again but to share my experience since we discussed this topic.

I have just finished my companies first training session of the year. My goal was to transition my personnel from a Stop Failure Drill using the pelvis to one using the head. Basically the drill used was your classic Stop Failure drill - 2 rounds to an 8 inch circle in the chest and one round to a 3x5 rectangle located in the head area. Since this was our first go at it I started them a three and five yards working towards a completion time of 3 to 4 seconds. The circle and rectangle were located on a standard IALEFI target which is basically a modified FBI Q target. As predicted the weaker students had troubles while my more accurate students had no problem. Everyone was eventually able to complete the drill so I was pretty happy with the results for our first attempt. Of course as with most drills we are talking a stationary target not shooting back at the student.

The problem cropped up when I changed the head target to a persons picture with a 3x5 outline around the eyes. I did this so my students will understand/visualize the proper position of the 3x5 target area, not the forehead not the jaw but centered on the eye/bridge of the nose area. Now some of my accurate students couldn't hit the target area to save their lives while some of the weaker students had no problems.

I have seen this problem before when I started using the IALEFI targets that had the scoring area imposed on an actual picture of a human threat target. Law Enforcement Targets has 4 versions - 2 white males, a white female and a minority male. One of my female students when she first shot the Q course using these picture targets cried through the entire course of fire. I told her she was one tough lady since she still qualified even though she cried the entire time. I had a minority student who refused to shoot the minority target, he had no problems shooting the white person targets. It seems when you humanize the target us civilized folks have a emotional problem effectively shooting it. I have read one study that theorized that this is one of the reasons police miss so often in gun fights. They are not prepared to actually shoot a human being no matter how many times or effectively they have shot your typical police silhouette target. After all they got into Law Enforcement to Serve & Protect - they value life and now they are fighting against folks who could give a s**t about someone else's life. That is one of the reasons I started using the picture targets and we had seemed to work thru the barrier.

Now it crops up all over again. I think my students over came their aversion by concentrating on the chest area and not giving the target a face and thus humanity. Now they are faced with looking the target in the eyes and taking the shot thus humanizing the target all over again.

How many of us just shoot the FBI Q, Trans Tar, B-27, IALEFI or other nondescript targets. It seems to me that there is real survival training value in switching away from our traditional PC (face it the Trans Tar were originally made blue and green or the FBI Q, so as not to offend) blank silhouette qualification targets and using picture targets to help our students get over their qualms about shooting people. As instructors we are not in the business of being non offensive, we are in the business of teaching our students to survive the most horrific traumatic event of their life. I do not discriminate, we shoot all races and sexes. Political Correctness be dammed.

PS: Heck it's not politically correct to shoot anyone anyway even in self defense.

[SpyderMan2k4]

Very interesting post. I may need to look into some more detailed targets for myself and others. Thanks for sharing your experiences!

[Pathfinder Ops]

PS: Heck it's not politically correct to shoot anyone anyway even in self defense.

This statement does not register in my brain. And recognizing gives it validity.

I have tried to process it from several perspectives and just can not accept it as reasonable let alone believable.

Its the theory process of a willing victim.
Its the mantra of failure.
It's the credo of weakness.

No offense is meant but I'm sorry; it flies in the face of everything I believe and it certainly runs counter to the message Col. (Ret.) Jeff Cooper posits in "Principles of Personal Defense."
Attachment 4832

The psychology of a gunfight (or any other fight for that matter) cannot have exceptions....like "politically correct".

You train to win.
You do what you gotta do.
You make no apologies for surviving.
You explain it through your lawyer later.

That's just my take and may not reflect the general populations.

[RSA-OTC]

The PS was said with sarcasm and tongue in cheek.

Those who believe in PC don't believe there is a need for self defense. Turn the other cheek so to speak. Since I teach self defense I therefore do not believe in their PC Views.

My point was that in trying to be PC with our targets we may very well have helped undermine our students ability to survive a gun fight.

Unfortunately many of the things that we have done in Law Enforcement training over the last 3 decades has been to serve Political Correctness trying to lessen discrimination lawsuits.

Historically in this field when we lose a lawsuit rather than finding the proper solution we swing directly and as far the other direction, when the proper solution may have been somewhere in the middle.

[VMI-MO]

I have been using pictures of Jihadi dirt suckers for a while.

I have a set of targets I made up that has the "brain box" lightly outlined so you can see your hits.

It is quite an eye opener when you go from shooting 3"x5" cards to a face. Different features, different "terrain refrences", aim points etc... Also when you are engaging heads from non head on.

If you put old shirts on IDPA targets it changes up the shoot alot. No more clearly defined aiming point.

PJ

[JSantoro]

"This statement does not register in my brain." Truer words were never typed.

If one thinks that the OP's statement about what is or is not politically correct spawned from anything but sarcasm, that person has one of two issues.

1. The Situational Awareness of a ripe summer squash.

OR

2. The literacy level of a ripe summer squash.

I don't know which it is you don't have, so perhaps focus on the topic of focus of the OP, and not the peripheral messages attached to it? Instead of sharpshooting him by evangelizing to the choir?

[Pathfinder Ops]

The PS was said with sarcasm and tongue in cheek.

Those who believe in PC don't believe there is a need for self defense. Turn the other cheek so to speak. Since I teach self defense I therefore do not believe in their PC Views.

My point was that in trying to be PC with our targets we may very well have helped undermine our students ability to survive a gun fight.

Unfortunately many of the things that we have done in Law Enforcement training over the last 3 decades has been to serve Political Correctness trying to lessen discrimination lawsuits.

Historically in this field when we lose a lawsuit rather than finding the proper solution we swing directly and as far the other direction, when the proper solution may have been somewhere in the middle.

Actually I gave thought to my post after doing it and want to apologize for it.

I know your statement was tongue in cheek. The resulting post by me was made on the heels of a meeting at a local gun club where they have decided that human targets and or "bottle" shaped targets are no longer allowed because they suggest a person is training to kill. And as a sportsman's club it is in conflict with the clubs purpose.

So...... My bad on that and I hope no offense was taken.

[tpd223]

Here we are mandated to use the IALEFI-Q target for quals, so I found a version of that target that has a man with a gun picture superimposed over the qual target, thus every time my officers responded during the qual it was to a man with a gun turning on them.

I also found different targets of men and women with guns (weirdly enough many of our female officers found this funny and would grab a female target from the target stack when refacing targets during in-service training), hostage targets, etc.

We also do quite a bit of FoF as well.

In my experience shooting fake bad guys with real guns, and real (pretend) bad guys with fake guns, does a great job of getting officers ready for a deadly force encounter.

[RSA-OTC]

Actually I gave thought to my post after doing it and want to apologize for it.

I know your statement was tongue in cheek. The resulting post by me was made on the heels of a meeting at a local gun club where they have decided that human targets and or "bottle" shaped targets are no longer allowed because they suggest a person is training to kill. And as a sportsman's club it is in conflict with the clubs purpose.

So...... My bad on that and I hope no offense was taken.

Apology accepted.

Been there done that and have bought the T Shirt more times than I care to imagine.

[Pathfinder Ops]

Apology accepted.

Been there done that and have bought the T Shirt more times than I care to imagine.

Thanks friend.....

I'm actually not an ass all the time.

Ok well maybe I am but I try to moderate it. LOL

Anyway thanks for what was a good post in general despite my rant.

PS- Where in Jersey? I was born and raised in Paterson. Yeah it's a sh$t hole.