Mohammed's image and Muslim outrage

**LMT42** · 04-22-10, 23:22

Since the South Park thread has been locked, I'm starting a new thread. Let's all be civil and not go down the road that got the last thread locked.

Frankly, I don't blame corporations or individuals for backing down from publishing images of Mohammed. In this day and age who can blame them? Why risk the backlash, outrage, bad publicity, death threats, etc..

However, this is one issue that we can tackle on our own, without politicians or corporations being involved. I also think this should be tackled in large numbers, so extremists can't issue a fatwa on one or two individuals. Besides, it's a business I could start for under $5,000.00, while standing up for our First Amendment rights. I happen to have a buddy with a screen-printing shop. The downside is that I might end up dead, or in federal custody on trumped up hate crime charges.

I'm curious how many members would buy a t-shirt with Mohammed's image on the front and an American flag on the back. Above Mohammed's image might read, "This is an image of Mohammed" and below his image might read, "We will not sacrifice our First Amendment rights!". On the back, of course, would read, "These colors don't run". The image would be tasteful, no bombs or anything inflammatory! Perhaps an image of an old man in a turban, with tears running down his face? (I figure any decent prophet would be upset with the way their religion has been hijacked by extremists)

I wanted to guage the overall consensus, and interest, of forum members on the subject. I'm thinking a high quality t-shirt, with a nice screen print on the front and back, plus me risking a slow beheading with a dull knife, would sell for roughly $35.00. So, would you buy one? No, maybe, hell yes? I figure if they'd sell in this forum, they'd sell on all the other gun forums as well.

I'm normally a pretty passive guy and don't believe in inciting ill will or hatred. However, this subject is starting to grate on my nerves. It's completely against free speech and everything we stand for as a country. The website that threatened South Park, Revolution Muslim, is not overseas, it's based here in the US in New York. Perhaps it's time we push back and let Muslims know that they can't trample our rights in our own country. It's just a fu*king image - get over it or get out!

**Complication** · 04-23-10, 00:20

Disclaimer: I have two degrees in religious studies and history, am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative (and a self-proclaimed 'toothless-moderate'), and am two (or three) scotches into the evening.

With all that said...

I watched the last two Southparks. I think the show, in general, in hilarious--if for no other reason than it makes fun of everybody and if you can't laugh at yourself, then you're living life wrong--and these past two episodes were just riotous (as in hilarious, not violence-inciting).

I, personally, would not wear such a shirt. That's due to a number of things. First, I'm the kind of person that hates bumper stickers. I hate McCain/Palin bumper stickers and I hate Obama/Biden bumper stickers--in fact, I hate anything on my car, even those plate-holders from the dealer! I have feelings on the subject--not as strong as some--but I don't really think anyone driving behind you cares what you think. Whether it's a "Go Vegan, Save the Planet" or a LaRue "Extremely Right Wing" sticker (which I'm strongly contemplating pasting on the "Go Vegan, Save the Planet" car parked out in my lot), I just don't think anyone gives a flying fk.

But second, it's unnecessary. One of the sad realities in life is that perception is often more important than reality. I honestly hope the producers of Southpark stick to their guns and keep pushing buttons. But that's because they have the chance to have a positive effect. They are in a position where they can make social commentary and significantly contribute to the social dialogue on the subject. And as much as wearing a t-shirt around might be 'doing the same thing'... it's not. On an individual scale, it has very little chance of affecting society's discourse on the subject but has a very real potential to seriously piss some folks off. (Read on if you're saying "So what?" right now.)

Think of bumper stickers. Either the person behind you voted for the other guy and thinks, "God, what an asshole" or "Haha, loser." Or the person behind you voted for the same guy and thinks, "That's my kinda guy." What does it matter? You're preaching to the choir in one instance, and just pissing someone else off in another. (Or the person behind you just doesn't give a crap.)

So, as individualistic as the American spirit is, the potential to have any significant effect is, to be honest, slim. So what are the downsides? Physical violence (although not likely), for one. But you could really insult someone. You might say, "So what?" But right now the battle is being fought over the moderate Muslims. They might be on the fence and being another "arrogant American" isn't going to help your case. In fact, it's likely to hurt it. Giving a huge middle finger to the extremists, while satisfying, will only set you back. Aiming for incremental progress through the moderates, while time consuming and frustrating, is the only way to achieve anything. So your goal is either to bring about change and sensibility, or just piss off people who disagree with you.

Let me digress a moment and offer up what might be called an anecdote. I took a class on Hinduism a few years ago with a really bright professor. He was a Hindu himself but I swear to God, he had 50% of the academic literature on the subject (worldwide) memorized and personally knew at least 75% of the authoritative scholars in the field. Really one of the smartest people I've ever known--I was seriously intimidated by his intellect; I have immense respect for the guy. We spent a semester (which, given, isn't that long) learning about all the basic in's and out's of Hinduism and how there's really no single religion, it's more of a huge, and often contradictory, conglomeration of similar tribal religions, grouped together by the Muslims and the British over the course of history. And on the last day of class he asks, "So, imagine you're flying home for Christmas in a few days and you sit next to someone who asks you what you do. You say you're a college student and you're studying religion. They ask you what kind of courses you take. You tell them Hinduism. They ask you 'What did you learn about Hinduism?' What do you say?" Everyone offered up their answers and he finished by saying, "The 'right' answer is: it depends. If they're Hindu, they're going to have strong beliefs on the subject and you should just avoid it. They believe what they believe and there's no sense in you arguing otherwise, you'll just make the rest of the flight uncomfortable for both of you. If they know nothing about it, use your judgement. Some people might be ready to hear 'There's no one thing called Hinduism' while other people might only be ready to hear a simplistic version of the truth. I study this stuff for a living. I teach it. I write books on it. And my answer to you is still, 'it depends.' Some people are open to whatever you have to say, some people are ready for only a simple version, and some people only want to hear exactly what they believe."

My studies were focused on early Christianity. I find it fascinating how dramatically the religion changed and morphed in the first 3 or 4 centuries it was alive. I've studied heretics before they were heretics, splinter sects before there was an orthodox sect, and various councils which changed the face of the religion based on what seemed to be politics. I've studied secular interpretations of the history, religious interpretations of the history, and interpretations of the history based entirely on ignorance and willful misinterpretation. And yet still, when someone asks about it or someone says something which is factually untrue, my response depends on who the person is. If they're a friend, I might get into a 3-hour discussion on the matter. If it's a co-worker, I might equivocate a little bit and say, "Well, an alternative view/interpretation is....," and if it's a stranger, I'm likely to just pass over the subject altogether.

That's not because I'm a coward or that I think ignorance is fine. It's because some people aren't ready to hear dissenting opinions and anything they hear and don't like won't simply fall on deaf ears, it'll be counter-productive.

I think such a shirt stands to achieve little. I think the creators of Southpark have a very large and influential soap box which they can use to spread enlightened ideals of tolerance and get people to understand that a CARTOON Jesus watching internet porn or Buddha snorting crack (from the episode) is far worse than showing a CARTOON depiction of Mohammed just standing around. But I think the soapbox of the individual cannot have even the same proportional effect and yet stands to incur problems just as severe.

Further, flying in the face of Muslim ideals and laws will accomplish nothing. The way to overcome extremism in any form (whether it's Muslim, religious, political, etc.) is not extremism of the opposing poles, but moderation. And right now I think anything which enables extremists to group the moderate Muslims in with 'arrogant infidels' is harmful to both camps.

I'm totally with you in my frustration. I agree, it's completely asinine. But I think it's a bad idea for the same reason that I hate Michael Moore. I'm left-leaning on social issues, but Michael Moore is a total asshole and all he does (besides making boatloads of money off of his films) is make it easier for the right to group moderates or left-of-centers in with the cooks on the far left who really only care about pissing off 'the other guy.' That's why I dislike Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly as much as I dislike Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann. They've all got an agenda which gets in the way (to greater and lesser extents) with presenting and participating in a productive and positive social dialogue.

If you've ever seen Jon Stewart's famous appearance on Crossfire (and even if you haven't), you'll understand that the greatest danger to both the right and the left, is the huge polarization that the extreme right and left try to accomplish. I think such a shirt, as correct as I think it would be, does nothing but polarize the issue.

We're all gun people here. We know that you can have a temper and you can have a gun, but not both. We all know that with those 2.5 pounds of steel and lead on our hips we have a responsibility to be able to judge a situation as "not worth it." I think that if the same level-headedness was brought to bear on this issue, we could probably agree that such shirts are just "not worth it" (that guy's a real jerk and I'd love to give him a piece of my mind, but he's just not worth it).

I'll fight to the death for your right to make, sell, buy, and wear those shirts. And even though I agree with the idea, and think it's kind of funny, I'll still counsel you the entire time that you shouldn't do it.

I hope that made sense and didn't piss off too many people.

**bkb0000** · 04-23-10, 00:29

that post was way too long to read.

count me in for a t-shirt. i have friends that would probably want some too.

**M4Fundi** · 04-23-10, 00:30

I think you would need to do a mock up of the shirt first.

**Grayling14** · 04-23-10, 08:04

At the time of this posting, the short video referred to in the above mentioned thread is still viewable. The interview at the back end is well worth watching, (CAUTION: Video may 'Anger-Up The Blood').

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...ex.html?hpt=C2

It is sheer lunacy that groups, publications and/or websites such as Revolution Muslim are allowed to conduct their operations, openly, right in our midst. Why isn't the FBI, ATF, etc. raiding these Muslim organizations? Maybe if 'somebody' hung a sign over the door that said; Waco, Ruby Ridge or Hutaree, it would be accomplished quickly, and with zealousness. If ANY other group were to so openly spew the kind of hate that is issuing from the mouths, and pens, of these radical Muslims, they would be wearing orange jumpsuits before they knew what hit them.

**Alex V** · 04-23-10, 08:47

Originally Posted by Grayling14

At the time of this posting, the short video referred to in the above mentioned thread is still viewable. The interview at the back end is well worth watching, (CAUTION: Video may 'Anger-Up The Blood').

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...ex.html?hpt=C2

It is sheer lunacy that groups, publications and/or websites such as Revolution Muslim are allowed to conduct their operations, openly, right in our midst. Why isn't the FBI, ATF, etc. raiding these Muslim organizations? Maybe if 'somebody' hung a sign over the door that said; Waco, Ruby Ridge or Hutaree, it would be accomplished quickly, and with zealousness. If ANY other group were to so openly spew the kind of hate that is issuing from the mouths, and pens, of these radical Muslims, they would be wearing orange jumpsuits before they knew what hit them.

From what I understand "revolutionalymuslim dot com' is not based int he US. Therefor, the FBI and ATF can do nothing.

I would buy a T-Shirt like that as well... if I was aloowed to carry in NJ lol

**HardHatMan** · 04-23-10, 08:52

The most ironic thing about this whole situation is the fact that they are attacking the first amendment while USING the first amendment to express their feelings about the show. It has gotten to the point where we are letting these extremist bully us around and now we are changing our culture to suit them. We are constantly pussyfooting around the subjects concerning them while they continue make threats and commit murder. This is ridiculous. Something needs to change, NOW.

**montanadave** · 04-23-10, 09:19

I can appreciate Complication's perspective on this topic and thank him/her for such a well-composed, carefully considered response. That said, I am frankly sick and tired of waiting for the silent majority of "moderate' Muslims that we constantly hear about but never seem to hear from. If the Muslim community seriously expects anyone to believe that they simply want to "live and let live" while worshipping in peace, than they best get off their collectives asses and start condemning the hatred and violence fomented within their own community. They seem to want their cake and eat it to, offering up platitudes about being a peaceful and loving faith while, at the same time, secretly relishing the power created by the threats of violent Islamic fundamentalists.

In response to groups such as the New York-based Revolution Muslim, I'm with Jon Stewart in encouraging them to "Go **** themselves!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_549178.html

Yeah, I know, the link's to Huff Post, so kill me. Watch the video clip from The Daily Show anyway.