Illegal Castoffs

[Belmont31R]

I hear what your saying, but I also have to say it isn't true. When ICE started doing their raids on farming communities, several orchards out East, and out West (my fiance's father has a cherry farm in Oregon, I live in Apple country. The pickers on his farm are my future in laws and no-one else so don't go there) had a really hard time finding pickers. There were three orchards here that half way into the season couldn't get a work force of pickers at 10 dollars an hour cash. In an area full of college kids.

Why? Because Americans think they're too good for jobs like that.

If I had an offer for a ten dollar an hour job ON THE BOOKS in college that consisted of working outside all day, I would have jumped on it in a heart beat.

It's not that American's aren't willing to do it for the pay, it's that most Americans feel they are entitled to not have to do shit when it comes to making money.

To solve the problem that your talking about, you would also have to have massive government regulation of wages in order to insure that people like yourself are capable of both paying for a babysitter, and doing the job that was vacated when the illegals were kicked out. And, government regulation is something that is an absolute NO NO, right??? It's Socialism right???

No its that I have enough education, work experience, and am past the point of minimum wage jobs.


By your own admission you could not find legal workers to work for $10 an hour. That means you were not paying enough by current standards.

When you introduce illegals to the mix it throws the entire capitalist balance off because you are hiring people at 3rd world rates when you're operating in a 1st world country. By the standards we have advanced in society its nearly impossible to live off a minimum wage job. The way people in your situation have gotten around this is to hire illegals at cut rate prices, and putting the burden of caring for these people onto the tax payer. Your half-wage illegals don't have enough money to take care of themselves so they show up in the ER so we get to pay their medical care because you arent paying them enough to do it on their own. They take their kids to the county medical clinics to get shots and WIC. So in essence its you, the employer, cheating the system and passing the buck off to the tax payer to care for your employees.

And no I dont think we need massive regulations to make sure someone like me can get ANY job, and take care of my family. I simply didn't take on the responsibility until I was in a position to pay for it. However at this point I couldn't go back to 10/hr because it wouldn't even pay to put my kids in day care. There is no going back for me having a family.



Go back to when unions started up, and employers abusing their workers is what led way to the welfare state where people want guarenteed this and that because employers wont do it. Instead we get to pay outrageous taxes so employers can maximize their profits shoving the well being of their workers onto the gov tit.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I heard that the protests at the state capitol were a bit on the violent side...and there will be some vandalism charges. Someone smeared a swastika on a window with refried beans...

Uhhmm, that's not refried beans. Recycled beans maybe.

The one and only time you can legitimately use the term "beaner". (come'on that's funny). God love Carlos Mencina.

I think it all goes to the problem of the interpretation of the 14th Amendment that if you are born here you are a citizen. Something originally designed to make sure that slaves were considered citizens is making us all slaves to whoever can whelp a baby on our soil. Liberals like to point to the enlightened Europeans as the model we should emulate. How many of them would allow the offspring of illegals to be granted full citizenship? The most valuable thing that we possess is our citizenship in the US. Not since the Roman Empire has citizenship been so valuable, and we hand it out like cracker jack prizes.

I read somewhere (CNN?) that the US government could refuse to take illegals caught under this law. Can you imagine the uproar if DOJ makes AZ release these guys when they catch them, or takes them and lets them go (after getting them a lawyer to sue the state, of course).

[Belmont31R]

Uhhmm, that's not refried beans. Recycled beans maybe.

The one and only time you can legitimately use the term "beaner". (come'on that's funny). God love Carlos Mencina.

I think it all goes to the problem of the interpretation of the 14th Amendment that if you are born here you are a citizen. Something originally designed to make sure that slaves were considered citizens is making us all slaves to whoever can whelp a baby on our soil. Liberals like to point to the enlightened Europeans as the model we should emulate. How many of them would allow the offspring of illegals to be granted full citizenship? The most valuable thing that we possess is our citizenship in the US. Not since the Roman Empire has citizenship been so valuable, and we hand it out like cracker jack prizes.

I read somewhere (CNN?) that the US government could refuse to take illegals caught under this law. Can you imagine the uproar if DOJ makes AZ release these guys when they catch them, or takes them and lets them go (after getting them a lawyer to sue the state, of course).

Back a truck up to the border, and when they jump out they are in Mexico.

[Grayling14]

The real issue here is the enforcement of the rule of law. We are a country of laws, laws that everyone inside of our borders are expected to comply with. As the law stands now it is illegal to be in this country without legal documentation. By definition, engaging in illegal activities makes one a criminal. I fail to see how the objective enforcement of our laws makes us racist, fascist or immoral. To the contrary, not enforcing our laws equally is immoral.

[Mac5.56]

No its that I have enough education, work experience, and am past the point of minimum wage jobs.


By your own admission you could not find legal workers to work for $10 an hour. That means you were not paying enough by current standards.

First let me clarify something: You keep saying "YOU" as if I am somehow responsible for this. I told you that I live in Apple Country. I am not the owner, or an employee on an apple farm. Nor have I ever worked on one. I mentioned my future in-laws own a cherry farm in the middle of cherry country in Oregon. I also stated that it is only family that works on this farm. So to clarify, when you as in YOU Belmont31R, are referring to ME you are wrong, and should be using "they".

Second. Your telling me that $10 an hour offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive on a global market that was the maximum they were capable of paying their pickers in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about, and the realities of free market capitalism.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well, open your eyes. The large majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.

When you introduce illegals to the mix it throws the entire capitalist balance off because you are hiring people at 3rd world rates when you're operating in a 1st world country. By the standards we have advanced in society its nearly impossible to live off a minimum wage job. The way people in your situation have gotten around this is to hire illegals at cut rate prices, and putting the burden of caring for these people onto the tax payer. Your half-wage illegals don't have enough money to take care of themselves so they show up in the ER so we get to pay their medical care because you arent paying them enough to do it on their own. They take their kids to the county medical clinics to get shots and WIC. So in essence its you, the employer, cheating the system and passing the buck off to the tax payer to care for your employees.

Yes that is exactly what is happening the employer is cheating the system and we all suffer. But what exactly is your proposal to change this? You gripe about it, you blame the illegals as if they are some how the cause, and then to top it off you have the audacity to then go further and blame unions that originated as a way to counter this reality prior to fair labor laws. So what exactly do you suggest happens? If you boot the illegals you have several in country industries that are no longer capable of making a profit because their wages can't support a legal US worker. These companies close down, or move abroad. Thus, there are no jobs created in this country. It's a Catch 22.

And no I dont think we need massive regulations to make sure someone like me can get ANY job, and take care of my family. I simply didn't take on the responsibility until I was in a position to pay for it. However at this point I couldn't go back to 10/hr because it wouldn't even pay to put my kids in day care. There is no going back for me having a family.

The only reason you were ever capable of having the life that you have today was because of government regulated capitalism. If you don't believe this, or refuse to accept it, you are honestly ignorant of your own nations history.

In regards to you and your family. Really? No going back? So if you lost your job today, and the only job available was a 10 dollar an hour apple picking job you wouldn't take it? If you did have to take it, and you couldn't make ends meat what would you do? What if your kid got sick?

Go back to when unions started up, and employers abusing their workers is what led way to the welfare state where people want guarenteed this and that because employers wont do it. Instead we get to pay outrageous taxes so employers can maximize their profits shoving the well being of their workers onto the gov tit.

No offense but this is such a twisted and convoluted version of history it barely even deserves a response. The only reason you have the 1st World standards you talk about is because of the labor movement. It sure as hell wasn't because of the bosses. Did the labor movement eventually fall into problems and become less about the workers? Yea in some situations it did. In others it did not. But you have completely failed to address the reality of the questions your complaining about, and have also failed completely to offer a valid solution given the realities of World Trade.

If you want to close the US borders completely, and only have an internal economy that trades only amongst the 50 states, then say so. Also suggest to us how to accomplish it and make it sustainable.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Second. Your telling me that $10 dollars offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive they that was the maximum they were capable of paying in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well open your eyes. Well over the majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.

Competitive against whom? If all the growers have to use legal labor, all their costs will be similar. Yes, prices would be higher, but a lot of goods would be cheaper if we allowed manufacturers to cut corners and do illegal things, like dump waste.

As to if they don't do it here, they'll do it overseas. All those jobs are already shipped out, it is the jobs that can't move that the issue. Instead of exporting the factory, they have imported the labor. This has effectively weaved a third world country into the fabric of our nation.

People say that they do jobs that Americans won't do. If this is true, why in the heck give them amnesty and make them citizens. If we do that, they'll just grab a sofa and quit doing the jobs and we'll have to ship in some new third world country disporia.

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

[Mac5.56]

Competitive against whom? If all the growers have to use legal labor, all their costs will be similar. Yes, prices would be higher, but a lot of goods would be cheaper if we allowed manufacturers to cut corners and do illegal things, like dump waste.

As to if they don't do it here, they'll do it overseas. All those jobs are already shipped out, it is the jobs that can't move that the issue. Instead of exporting the factory, they have imported the labor. This has effectively weaved a third world country into the fabric of our nation.

I am in no way disagreeing with you about that. But go to the super market and pick up an apple and look at the stamp on it for its country of origin. You'll see that there is plenty of competition for food production abroad.

And also, dumping waste is an example of government regulation.

People say that they do jobs that Americans won't do. If this is true, why in the heck give them amnesty and make them citizens. If we do that, they'll just grab a sofa and quit doing the jobs and we'll have to ship in some new third world country disporia.

I agree

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

Ha ha, I get it. Another reference about how I must be a an idiot because I think logically. Funny. Did Glen Beck put that in his latest book as a foot note?

Why is it on this forum, and I ask this as an honest question, that very few people that respond in these subjects can go for more then two paragraphs without blaming someone that they are arguing against of being some evil secret "liberal"?

Such reactions do so much to discredit finding a real solution to these issues. I've said it before in this thread, I'll say it again. I want this issue solved as much as the next person. I want the economy to start kicking ass again. I want Bin Laden's head on a plate just like you do. I want to be able to speak my mind, be an atheist, own a gun, not have the government come into my home, ext. But all I see on both the left and the right are sound board soap box politics with hollow results. I see politicians that focus on divisive issues in order to get us to argue amongst ourselves while they sit back getting fat and happy. It saddens me when I see so many awesome humans (on both the left and the right) give into it and start drinking the kool aid of their particular party. It basically means we're f'ing doomed cause we can't even sit down an talk without inserting these little quips about the "evil other" every chance we get.

[Honu]

There wouldn't be illegal immigration in this country if there weren't corrupt citizens of this nation that are willing to break the law by hiring illegals for the purpose of making a profit. Until this is addressed illegal immigration wont go away.

well not sure ?
since many are here just to do crimes and sell drugs or bring drugs in etc...
so criminal activity is still a huge problem since they can come over do their crimes and then go back or many times when they get caught they just get deported back ?

so the problem would still be here ! but I do agree it would for sure cut down on things and think they should crack down on the business people big time


after living in Honduras I am amazed at how insanely racist Mexicans are against Hondurans and Guatemalans !
and people think our borders are bad the way we treat people
then those people should take a trip way far south and see how Mexico takes care of its southern borders !!!! and how it treats people down their !!!!

[Honu]

I do think they should have a very good guest worker program !

but how ? no clue but should be something where they can get a competitive wage they are happy with and proper housing supplied and for a short term then they have to go back for at least 2x the amount of time or something like that ? that they are in the country to make sure they do not end up living here on a guest program

permanent card that they get after background check and other things that the employer pays for to get cheap labor

taxes collected etc.. medical covered by the employer

I do think anyone breaking the law to get into the country should be tattooed in a noticeable spot so its easy to check when coming back over and deny them

[Mac5.56]

well not sure ?
since many are here just to do crimes and sell drugs or bring drugs in etc...
so criminal activity is still a huge problem since they can come over do their crimes and then go back or many times when they get caught they just get deported back ?

I hate to do this, but let me use an argument you should be familiar with: A criminal is a criminal and they will break the law no matter what level of government legislation is put into place in an attempt to stop this.

Is this forum not home to this exact same defense in regards to gun control laws?

Hell, it is the argument I use with my anti gun friends when they ask why I am against gun control. I argue that illegal gun violence happens no matter if there is gun legislation or not. I actually use Mexico as an example, and Brazil, and Chicago, and DC. I point out how even with strong anti gun laws there is still a thriving black market trade in firearms, and extreme examples of gun violence.

So, how exactly, will creating hollow legislation help get rid of these evil doers that you are talking about? Will it prevent them from coming here to commit crimes? Will it prevent them from using immigration laws a free pass back to their country? Will it honestly stop anything your talking about? Or will the criminals just get better at committing the same crimes?

My answer is that just like gun control it wont effect any of the people it was actually designed to effect, and that you are falling victim to the same urges you bemoan and rip your hair out about when you scream about the idiocy of liberal fanatics and their gun control laws.

after living in Honduras I am amazed at how insanely racist Mexicans are against Hondurans and Guatemalans !
and people think our borders are bad the way we treat people
then those people should take a trip way far south and see how Mexico takes care of its southern borders !!!! and how it treats people down their !!!!

I've seen South American racism, but I've never been to Central America. I lived in South America for a time. It amazed me how open the racism was there. I also have friends from both South and Central America so I know about the issue as a whole, but two wrongs don't make a right. I've also worked in Europe and seen how open racism is there. My father works in Asia now, and was in Africa before, and he comments about the same thing on these continents. From my travels and his stories I think The United States of America is an amazing place considering. I think most people aren't racist at all when compared to the rest of the world, we have our extremist assholes, and plenty of bigots, but it is not as culturally acceptable as other places I have visited. Their actions shouldn't justify my acceptance of ignorance within my boarders though, this is The United States of America, this is my country, this is your country, it's all of our ours, and I love it, so I hold both my nation and all of us to a higher standard then I do the rest of the world! My ancestors came over on a boat, and to tell you the 100% honest truth I don't know if it was legal in every families case! My grandmother was adopted. Do you know your families history? Do you even know your races history in this country? I doubt that very few of the people bashing their chests right now do, so they are casting stones without even knowing who to judge! I'm not saying this to excuse anyones behavior, I am saying it to try and humble myself, and others so that we can start to address the realities of what is going on. I know for a fact from my travels, and my life that i can't look anyone in the eye and tell them: "You don't have a right to feed your family." I also know that I am secure enough in my own ability to survive that "the big bad boogie man" doesn't really scare me, as I've met him before, and he exists in every society no matter the laws or legislation in place trying to prevent his existence.