Illegal Castoffs

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

One last thing, if all these illegals are here in the US, they are contributing to global warming at a far greater rate than if they were in their mother countries. Stop Global Warming at the border! Save the world and send an illegal home! Just wait till cap and tax comes, and these illegals coming over the border make it harder for us to hit our carbon caps. Guess what happens when people are forced to either run their houses at 60F in the winter/85F in the summer or send illegals home. Let me help you pack.

Ha ha, I get it. Another reference about how I must be a an idiot because I think logically. Funny. Did Glen Beck put that in his latest book as a foot note?

Why is it on this forum, and I ask this as an honest question, that very few people that respond in these subjects can go for more then two paragraphs without blaming someone that they are arguing against of being some evil secret "liberal"?

I'm not accusing you of being logical, or even of being a liberal - I'm not that mean.

The comment wasn't even aimed at you and is not so Glenn Beck as it is Freakanomics. Cheap labor to build big houses, cheap labor to clean them and take care of the yards has contributed to the McMansion and overbuilding of housing over the past two decades. This is just another symptom of our consumerism and short term thinking. Illegal immigration has warped our country and our culture in many ways that I think aren't readily apparent. Since global warming is the deadly sin 1-7 in the church of the left, I was offering the comment as a general way smack the ball back into the borderless crowds court.

[Spiffums]

It's not that American's aren't willing to do it for the pay, it's that most Americans feel they are entitled to not have to do shit when it comes to making money.

They go to college to get a big job in a high rise and drive BMWs and land rovers.................... and it is just a pipe dream like everything else. I wonder how many kids are sitting in college today that wont ever work in what they studied for. I know I never have because of all the state hiring freezes and other assorted happenstance.

[Belmont31R]

First let me clarify something: You keep saying "YOU" as if I am somehow responsible for this. I told you that I live in Apple Country. I am not the owner, or an employee on an apple farm. Nor have I ever worked on one. I mentioned my future in-laws own a cherry farm in the middle of cherry country in Oregon. I also stated that it is only family that works on this farm. So to clarify, when you as in YOU Belmont31R, are referring to ME you are wrong, and should be using "they".

Second. Your telling me that $10 an hour offered under the table to hire seasonal legal employees isn't enough money? Your point may be valid. But if it is, it doesn't change the reality of capitalism. Those farm owners determined that in order to stay competitive on a global market that was the maximum they were capable of paying their pickers in order to stay competitive. If they paid more to hire legal workers they wouldn't have been able to sell their products and stay in business. This is the entire dichotomy I am talking about, and the realities of free market capitalism.

You keep speaking about "paying 3rd world wages", well, open your eyes. The large majority of consumer products produced and sold in this country are done so by corporations paying 3rd world wages. If they don't do it here in the US with illegal immigrants, they do it abroad. This is because, like I said before capitalism will seek to get the most amount of work for the least amount of pay.



Yes that is exactly what is happening the employer is cheating the system and we all suffer. But what exactly is your proposal to change this? You gripe about it, you blame the illegals as if they are some how the cause, and then to top it off you have the audacity to then go further and blame unions that originated as a way to counter this reality prior to fair labor laws. So what exactly do you suggest happens? If you boot the illegals you have several in country industries that are no longer capable of making a profit because their wages can't support a legal US worker. These companies close down, or move abroad. Thus, there are no jobs created in this country. It's a Catch 22.



The only reason you were ever capable of having the life that you have today was because of government regulated capitalism. If you don't believe this, or refuse to accept it, you are honestly ignorant of your own nations history.

In regards to you and your family. Really? No going back? So if you lost your job today, and the only job available was a 10 dollar an hour apple picking job you wouldn't take it? If you did have to take it, and you couldn't make ends meat what would you do? What if your kid got sick?





No offense but this is such a twisted and convoluted version of history it barely even deserves a response. The only reason you have the 1st World standards you talk about is because of the labor movement. It sure as hell wasn't because of the bosses. Did the labor movement eventually fall into problems and become less about the workers? Yea in some situations it did. In others it did not. But you have completely failed to address the reality of the questions your complaining about, and have also failed completely to offer a valid solution given the realities of World Trade.

If you want to close the US borders completely, and only have an internal economy that trades only amongst the 50 states, then say so. Also suggest to us how to accomplish it and make it sustainable.

You being a hypothetical crop owner.


It simply costs me money to work for $10 an hour in my current situation since I have 2 young kids at home. My 1st job out of the Army was around $12/hr before taxes, and I ended up losing money.


I never said any regulation is bad. Our system is setup to be as close to capitalism as you can get while not being anarchy. Now its closer to socialism than capitalism but thats another thread.


If you (or anyone else) wants to hire legal American workers then you need to offer enough pay to get applicants in the door. $10/hr is not that much for what is probably pretty hard work, and its barely enough for a single person living in a cheap apartment to get by on working it full time. A college student may not even be able to put in the time to even make it worth it. My wife goes to school, and works at night because she can't work during the day, and go to school. For every hour she is in class she has 1-3 hours at home studying.


Yes crappy employers are what gave way to unions. Not all of them. But plenty of them. I think most unions should have gone away with modern labor laws as they no longer serve a purpose other than to pad the wallets of the union bosses, and stay relevant. Some offer job training programs which is nice, keeps certain skill sets alive in the US. But then you get UAW type operations which force the employer into bankruptcy. State workers unions driving their states into bankruptcy.


For food products I see lots of advertisements, and I try to buy local as much as I can. I don't think we should even be importing food from 3rd world countries, and I wouldn't even care if produce prices doubled as long as I knew I was buying American made produce, and picked by legal Americans. We are paying that now its just the cost is shifted off the price I pay at the super market to taxes to take care of the illegals.

[Belmont31R]

They go to college to get a big job in a high rise and drive BMWs and land rovers.................... and it is just a pipe dream like everything else. I wonder how many kids are sitting in college today that wont ever work in what they studied for. I know I never have because of all the state hiring freezes and other assorted happenstance.

Colleges sell plenty of worthless degrees. One of my friends from HS for instance got a bachelors from UCLA in.....philosophy. Now he works at a bank making 15 bucks an hour with around 100k in school loans to pay back.

[Buck]

Colleges sell plenty of worthless degrees. One of my friends from HS for instance got a bachelors from UCLA in.....philosophy. Now he works at a bank making 15 bucks an hour with around 100k in school loans to pay back.

This is why there is OCS...

B

[Irish]

Just makes me want to move to AZ even more.

[Mac5.56]

The comment wasn't even aimed at you and is not so Glenn Beck as it is Freakanomics. Cheap labor to build big houses, cheap labor to clean them and take care of the yards has contributed to the McMansion and overbuilding of housing over the past two decades. This is just another symptom of our consumerism and short term thinking. Illegal immigration has warped our country and our culture in many ways that I think aren't readily apparent. Since global warming is the deadly sin 1-7 in the church of the left, I was offering the comment as a general way smack the ball back into the borderless crowds court.

Very awesome points. This is why I tell most people I meet that we all know there is a problem with the path this society is taking, and we all know that it is insanely complex, we just can't figure out how the hell to move forward. Your points are contributing factors I hadn't looked at in that way before.

I was really just joking about the Glen Beck stuff. Glad you took my response well.

I think the reality is that we over consume, and capitalism has stepped up to the plate to provide. I personally try really hard to limit my consumption. In fact guns are my only hobby that I purchase things for (and that is mostly ammo for the guns I already own). Because we limit our consumption, we are able to live a middle class life style with a lower middle class income. People should try it, it's actually pretty liberating.

[Mac5.56]

You being a hypothetical crop owner.


It simply costs me money to work for $10 an hour in my current situation since I have 2 young kids at home. My 1st job out of the Army was around $12/hr before taxes, and I ended up losing money.


I never said any regulation is bad. Our system is setup to be as close to capitalism as you can get while not being anarchy. Now its closer to socialism than capitalism but thats another thread.


If you (or anyone else) wants to hire legal American workers then you need to offer enough pay to get applicants in the door. $10/hr is not that much for what is probably pretty hard work, and its barely enough for a single person living in a cheap apartment to get by on working it full time. A college student may not even be able to put in the time to even make it worth it. My wife goes to school, and works at night because she can't work during the day, and go to school. For every hour she is in class she has 1-3 hours at home studying.


Yes crappy employers are what gave way to unions. Not all of them. But plenty of them. I think most unions should have gone away with modern labor laws as they no longer serve a purpose other than to pad the wallets of the union bosses, and stay relevant. Some offer job training programs which is nice, keeps certain skill sets alive in the US. But then you get UAW type operations which force the employer into bankruptcy. State workers unions driving their states into bankruptcy.


For food products I see lots of advertisements, and I try to buy local as much as I can. I don't think we should even be importing food from 3rd world countries, and I wouldn't even care if produce prices doubled as long as I knew I was buying American made produce, and picked by legal Americans. We are paying that now its just the cost is shifted off the price I pay at the super market to taxes to take care of the illegals.

I agree with everything that you said in this post! But I still don't know if we can accomplish all of it as a nation. I'm not saying I don't think we should try, I'm just saying I don't think we can.

Especially when it comes to food production.

I don't think that either Dem or Rep would be capable of revising our tariff laws in such a way as to place emphasis on American's working for a fair wage.

Trust me I would love to see it happen. I have a terminal degree, I "work" in my field daily, but since the market collapsed in other areas, so to did the art market. My art is no longer selling even though it's been in some of the top gallery locations in the world (very little art is selling). I no longer teach because of lay offs due to bankrupt state governments. I make a living wage at a bar, never see my fiance, and spend my work day with some of the lower examples of human decency on the planet.

I realize that we all like to talk about changing the entire system, but one thing that I have been trying really hard to do is like you said, support local farmers. I realize it is kind of "hippie trendy" at the moment, but my fiance and I purchase a share of Community Supported Agriculture every year. We always pick a farm that officers meat too, in order to insure that they're not super hippies. To tell you the truth it really does insure that your produce is coming from within your state (and sometimes county) border. Plus if your into canning and preserving, well, you get plenty of food and you know exactly where it is coming from!

[Eddiesketti]

Incentives for illegals hurt the US. One thing that hurts immigrants is NAFTA. When Clinton passed NAFTA, crop growers in Mexico couldn't afford to sell corn and other produce to make a profit because the US produce sold for less. The mom and pop grocery cart he used to feed his 3 or 4 kids with now makes nothing. It would be a logical choice to go where the money is being made.

I do not want illegals here siphoning the money from each state with anchor kids holding them here. In my short stint working for the State, i noticed a lot of this type who already knew the system and all the benefits they are entitled to.

There are alot of other illegal immigrants here than that of the hispanic culture. Students with expired visas, visitors from abroad who never left, etc...

It should be stiffer penalties for those who broke the law. Individuals, companies, everything.

[ForTehNguyen]

the funny thing is the AZ bill is basically a copy paste of federal immigration laws and procedures into the state level so the state can enforce it. So if people had a problem with AZ's bill then they have to have a problem with the federal level

but lets be honest, the only reason they are mad because someone is actually chasing them now, unlike the feds who were asleep at the wheel.

Heres the bill, a whopping 19 pages!
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

excerpts:

A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY LIMIT OR RESTRICT THE
18 ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT
19 PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.
41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

K. THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH
17 FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL
18 PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES
19 CITIZENS.

B. The terms of this act regarding immigration shall be construed to
41 have the meanings given to them under federal immigration law.
42 C. This act shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal
43 laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and
44 respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.