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Thread: To sling or not to sling?

  1. #11
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    LET ME SAY FIRST: THE TRAINING BY THE PFC FOLKS WAS TOP SHELF AND VERY PROFESSIONALLY PRESENTED. EXCELLENT TRAINING AND WORTH EVERY PENNY/ MINUTE SPENT.

    I was also in the class this Saturday and have to say that the discussion about the slings by the PFC folks caused A LOT of the students some confusion.

    I think there are a couple reasons for that. One is that there is such a marketing and internet forum chatter frenzy about them (things like which are good, what type, etc.) that it's almost become a given that a sling is a mandatory basic item for your platform.

    I was in the Army many moons ago and all we had was the standard issue black strap that ran front to back and the primary function of that item was to carry that weapon in an administrative posture. Yes some of us used it to help with shooting but the vast majority did not. Hence the idea that PFC suggests is that the only reason slings exist is because they don't make a holster for a rifle.

    All that being said I think that there IS some usefulness for slings in certain environments (as PFC also suggested) but those are limited. The problems surrounding slings in PFC's opinion is that they can create more havoc than they solve. For me (and yes I use my carbine professionally) the vast majority of the time the only use my sling gets is when we are all standing around either getting briefed, or after operations but before I put my weapon back in its carrier or when I'm on a range listening to the instructor.

    In other words: while in an admin posture.

    I have been carrying and using an M16/ AR platform since 1979 and I can not think of a single time when I thought my sling was a mandatory item for my weapon system while in a combative mode. In fact there has been several times when my sling ended up being a pain in the ass.

    So yes, you read correctly; I have a sling on my current weapon. I don't perceive it as mandatory, but we spend a lot of time standing around waiting, briefing, listening, and whatever type admin stuff so the damned thing is VERY helpful.

    The other thing that should be considered is that when the PFC guys demonstrated the sling being a point where a bad guy can latch onto you, did you notice they did not show you what to do about it?

    I found that to be disturbing. If I show/ demonstrate a student how they can fail I have an obligation to give them a tool to fix it. Their solution was to tell you that the way to fix it was to not have a sling in the first place, well by then its too late because the bad guy already has you. The first thing that came to my mind in that demo was to pull my secondary weapon (handgun) and fix the BG. Of course that assumes I have that handgun and it also assumes that the student is training with that mindset.

    There are many many what if's in the world and my only real point is that PFC's position to dismiss slings across the board is nothing more than their opinion. It's an informed opinion but an opinion none the less. Some folks will agree with it some will not and the argument will be nothing more than the whole, 9mm vs .45 thing.

    I say if you have a sling, want a sling, like a sling for what ever reason; get it. Train with it. And decide whether that sling solves more of your problems or does it complicate your circumstance.

    I for one use a sling prolifically and mine does not hinder my ability to transition to my reaction side or any of the other examples given by the PFC trainers and if a BG ever latches onto me by my sling..... I have an answer for that.

    And besides, if I didn't have a sling I would have to lean my rifle against something to hold my coffee cup and my donuts......HA!

    GUYS THAT LAST PART IS A JOKE.
    Ed Fernley
    Pathfinder Operations
    Semper Primus!


    "I'M THE ONE WHO BARKED AT THUNDER, ROARED AT LIGHTENING, MADE DEATH WONDER."

    AND

    “Wherever I go, everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.
    Wherever I am, anyone in need has a friend.
    Whenever I return home, everyone is happy I am there.
    It's a better life!”- Robert L. Humphrey “Warriors Creed"


    "John has a long mustache."

  2. #12
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    I think PFC's reason to go slingless, is pretty lame if you ask me. As many have said, why is the bad guy so close in the first place, especially if your weapon hasn't malfunctioned and has a full mag? It is very easy (at least for me) to "parry" and block with the weapon and provide numerous chest or face thumps, butt strokes, shoot, or draw your secondary, and or tertiary (Knife) depending on the circumstances, with a sling still attached.

    Out of curiosity, do LEO's get "pugil" type training with their long guns?
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 05-03-10 at 09:35.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  3. #13
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    I'm thinking I need a rail or sling attachment for my HAK sheath.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    I think PFC's reason to go slingless, is pretty lame if you ask me. As many have said, why is the bad guy so close in the first place, especially if your weapon hasn't malfunctioned and has a full mag? There are many reasons a bad guy could be close to you but that's a "what if" type conversation. The truth is shit happens and sometimes BG's are not always right where you want them or can control them from a distance. That's ideal world crap and dismissing the idea that you will always have a bad guy at a distance that makes physical contact with them unlikely is a dream. It is very easy to "parry" and block with the weapon and provide chest or face thump, butt stoke, shoot, or draw your secondary,or tertiary (Knife) depending on the circumstances. Yeah ok........ I call BS and I bet if I latch onto you whether I have your sling or not I guarantee NOTHING about getting me off you is going to be easy. Especially if you didn't see it coming.

    Out of curiosity, do LEO's get "pugil" type training with their long guns? My experience is NO. Not ever not once. never even been talked about not even in a Patrol rifle course.
    Additional input is above in Blue text.

    Guys the reality is ANYTHING can happen. Especially at night, or in a confined space or when you are caught off guard. The PFC guys made it VERY clear and I agree that the use of "never," or "always" are words that will jump up and bite you in your ass.

    The discussion of the slings is no different than the milieu of arguments about any single item of gear. There is no across the spectrum correct answer to right and wrong.

    Not all your kit will work for you in all circumstances. All things are trade offs or critical decision commitments.

    I use a sling for many reasons. There are many reasons not to. So I make a choice based on my training, experience and environment and roll with it. When it's going south on me I suck it up and make it work.
    Ed Fernley
    Pathfinder Operations
    Semper Primus!


    "I'M THE ONE WHO BARKED AT THUNDER, ROARED AT LIGHTENING, MADE DEATH WONDER."

    AND

    “Wherever I go, everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.
    Wherever I am, anyone in need has a friend.
    Whenever I return home, everyone is happy I am there.
    It's a better life!”- Robert L. Humphrey “Warriors Creed"


    "John has a long mustache."

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pathfinder Ops View Post
    Additional input is above in Blue text.

    Guys the reality is ANYTHING can happen. Especially at night, or in a confined space or when you are caught off guard. The PFC guys made it VERY clear and I agree that the use of "never," or "always" are words that will jump up and bite you in your ass.

    The discussion of the slings is no different than the milieu of arguments about any single item of gear. There is no across the spectrum correct answer to right and wrong.

    Not all your kit will work for you in all circumstances. All things are trade offs or critical decision commitments.

    I use a sling for many reasons. There are many reasons not to. So I make a choice based on my training, experience and environment and roll with it. When it's going south on me I suck it up and make it work.
    Not being dismissive of their thought process, just thought it was lame. I agree with much of what you said, having thought out the various scenarios, before you even wrote it. The old Infantry adage, everything is situationally dependent.

    I have no doubt, "if" you could latch on to me that the struggle, wouldn't be easy, but....trust me when I say, you won't be gaining the upper hand at the end of that scenario.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 05-03-10 at 10:10.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  6. #16
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    For my duties as a LEO I always use a sling except when sighting in from a bench. If I'm shooting the sling is a none issue but the other 99.9999999% of the time it's a huge benefit and for me, mandatory. My home defense rifle also has a sling since that is what I'm familiar with. I'm not laying my rifle down to carry a child or move an injured family member. Since I'll more than likely be in boxers and not carrying a secondary I'm sure as shit not losing my only weapon.
    Only hits count......you can not miss fast enough to catch up

  7. #17
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    If someone is close enough to you and going to man handle you, they will try and maybe succeed with or without you wearing a sling. To be honest, I think they are a necessity. Why do we need holters for sidearms? For me, in LE, a sling must be used. Not gonna lay my rifle down to go hands on with someone. Not gonna lay my rifle down to help my injured partner or someone else. Not gonna throw my rifle over a fence or wall before I climb over it. Yes a BG can strangle/hurt you with your sling. He can also hurt you when your hands are full of rifle or when you drop your weapon on the deck in a fight. Nothing is perfect.

    I know I'm coming from a LE point of view but put yourself in a HD scenario where you may need to do other tasks while armed. That's why we use holsters and slings.
    Last edited by msap; 05-03-10 at 11:34.

  8. #18
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    I think from a risk-benefit perspective, and assuming one is competent and comfortable using a slung weapon, I'd look at the probability of a BG strangling you with your sling versus the probability of taking an unslung firearm from you. I do not recall seeing any stats on the former and would assume the probability to be very low compared to latter.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by msap View Post
    Why do we need holters for sidearms?
    When you grab your pistol off of your nightstand to respond to a bump-in-the-night, are you wearing a holster?

  10. #20
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    [QUOTE=rob_s;644240]
    FWIW, my home use carbine has no sling but only because I figure that if I need a carbine things have gone horribly awry and I need it right****ingnow and a sling is something I'm not going to have time to put on and a dangling sling to me is worse than no sling.

    Also to take in consideration is the noise it could cause trying to deploy the sling all be it small if you had an intruder that was in the next room or the hall way. Every other possible situation I can think of I would want the sling being used. If did find my self with a scuffle over the rifle I would prefer to be in the sling for the added retention.

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