View Poll Results: Spike's or BCM?

Voters
509. You may not vote on this poll
  • Spike's

    115 22.59%
  • BCM

    346 67.98%
  • Other

    48 9.43%
Page 131 of 140 FirstFirst ... 3181121129130131132133 ... LastLast
Results 1,301 to 1,310 of 1399

Thread: Official Spikes questions/comments thread (new Spikes posts go here)

  1. #1301
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,630
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by nozzle13 View Post
    After all of this reading I still have questions.

    Since, it all seems to boil down to the HPT'ing. If Spike's were to fire one M197 round in their rifles, and then MPI'd the bolt and barrel, they would be considered mil spec? I was looking over MIL-C-70599A(AR), and this seems like it would be the case. It also doesn't seem that, that would add 2-300 to the cost. They would just need to shoot it once before testing. How much is M197 anyway?
    It does not boil down to just HPTing. There are about 40 things called out in the MIL-B-11595E. Barrel steel, HPT and MPI are just a couple of the items.

    The cost in buying an M197 round or the SAAMI equiv, is not expensive. Getting them is a different animal.

    The cost comes in when you:

    1. Build the fixture to test fire the bolts and barrels.
    2. Labor costs.
    3. Drive/ship your barrels for MPI and then drive/ship them back (labor again).
    4. Rejection rate cost
    5. Barrel steel is more expensive than vanilla 4150 and 4140 (has come way down though).


    What was really disturbing was the amount of malfunctions that were allowed.

    Still trying to figure all of this out, but is this information that got everyone so heated? Or is it the price?

    I've read the Bravo Company certs, but to be honest have no idea what I'm looking at. Also DD doesn't seem to do the HPT'ing either, so should I not be looking at those either?

    How is the TDP different from MIL-C-70599A(AR)
    I won't get into what got this whole mess started.

    As a consumer (when getting ready to purchase a barrel, upper or rifle), ask the manufacturer how many barrels and bolts they reject a year. If they say that they don't know or NONE, that is a huge red flag. If they say that they reject 30-40%, that is another huge red flag.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-13-10 at 09:41.

  2. #1302
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,630
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss Hogg View Post
    I tend to relax on the subject of barrel steel. One of my friends has put 2 S&W 5.45 barrels through absolutely incredible abuse. They've both lasted 12,000+ rounds. Are those barrels MPI/HPT? Are they 11595-E? I'm not sure but I doubt it. I know they're not hammer forged. MTR07 and I had no problems with ours during a 3-day VTAC course.
    The answer is no and no on the S&W barrels.

    4140 will work for most everyone (specifically when dealing with SA fire).



    C4

  3. #1303
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    50
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    Not backing up claims for one, there are other issues, I believe it was mentioned in more detail over the past few pages here.




    That seems to be all they are lacking, at least out of the important requirements. As far as the pricing of it goes, I cant speak to that, but I know from the pricing we pay at work for testing that it is not cheap.
    Thanks Orion, still waiting on that cold brew! You ever make it down south, we're gonna have to make it happen.

    Now price: The testing in a since is already paid for. The only thing that would need to be done is fire off the M197 before testing. Even if the company doing the MPI was not set up to shoot, i.e. has a range, it would be an easy fix. They would just need a Bullet Box, a mounting fixture, and some one to pull the trigger. Then do an MPI test. It seems like it would be a cheap but very valuable tool for the testing company to possess. (In the long run) Now assuming Spike's has a place to shoot, all they would have to do is get the barrels and bolts sent to them, instead of straight to the testing company, fire off an M197 box'em up and send them out to test. In that scenario they would only be out the additional shipping. Still this doesn't add up to 2-300 Dollars more.

    Now if Spike's was smart, they could set up the company with the tank, about the price of a new Spike's Tactical Wagon, and get a deal on there testing. This would be good for the industry, because the testing company then could offer it to the other manufactures, of course they would charge the other guys more. This would put Spike's in a pretty good position to continue to offer the prices they do.

    Now more on price: It seems to me if I remember correctly that both Colt and FN were able bid there M-4 contracts for around 500.00. Only to discover that Colt had Intellectual Property Rights, and then the price went to 1700.00. This for some reason doesn't seem right to me. I know our government has spent $6000.00 on a toilet seat, but I paid 19 at my local Lowe's for a cushion-y padded one. It would seem that Colt could pass those savings onto the consumer, which it hasn't. Is there a sort of "price fixing" in the industry that Spike's is not abiding by? I do know there where allegations of fixing on TOS, but I have no info if they where true or not.

    It also seems that most of this boils down to Fanboy vs. Anti-Fanboy. There's a thread for the Fanboy, but not one describing the Anti. Anti-Fanboy is someone who looks down on fellas wearing wrangler because they wear Diesel, and everything else is crap. I myself don't give a ratsxxx what I where as long as it works, as intended.

    Also having banned Spike's from the site, and then starting a bashing thread, kind of seems a little childish. If you want answers, why the ban. I do agree since Tom stated he would post the certs then he should, and should have already.

    At the same time; it used to be, in America, that you took a man at his word, until you had reason to believe otherwise. You ended up getting screwed a bit that first time, but you learned. Sadly this is not the case anymore.
    Last edited by nozzle13; 08-13-10 at 10:26.

  4. #1304
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    2,047
    Feedback Score
    17 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by nozzle13 View Post
    It also seems that most of this boils down to Fanboy vs. Anti-Fanboy. There's a thread for the Fanboy, but not one describing the Anti. Anti-Fanboy is someone who looks down on fellas wearing wrangler because they wear Diesel, and everything else is crap. I myself don't give a ratsxxx what I where as long as it works, as intended.

    That is certainly a large reason for a lack of objectiveness on some parts.

  5. #1305
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    3,704
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    The answer is no and no on the S&W barrels.

    4140 will work for most everyone (specifically when dealing with SA fire).



    C4
    More to the point of this thread, S&W has never claimed otherwise either. Most manufacturers are honest about their processes. When they admit to batch testing, lower grade steel, etc. they are really proving that they have nothing to hide. Why else would you admit that you are selling a somewhat inferior product (compared to Colt and now BCM)? IMHO, this also speaks to those companies integrity and character. They can't afford to be caught in a bold-faced lie about their products. They offer an affordable and serviceable option for the average shooter. The fact that they are more affordable than a Colt 6920 is a result of using lesser materials and processes. Like everything in life, you rarely get a free lunch.

    Of course, when BCM came to market with a fully mil-spec gun at around $1K, well that changed things quite a bit. Now consumers have to ask themselves "why settle for less?" when you can spend just a little more and in some cases nothing more and get one of the best made rifles available. Bottom line is that no-one has claimed to sell a fully mil-spec gun until BCM and then Spikes. BCM is the only one that has stepped up to prove that claim.
    Last edited by mtdawg169; 08-13-10 at 10:52.

  6. #1306
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    760
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    I asked Doublestar why they had prolific use of the word "mil-spec" on their website...they blamed it on their web designer...but the website had last been edited at least six months prior...

  7. #1307
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,630
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by nozzle13 View Post
    Now price: The testing in a since is already paid for. The only thing that would need to be done is fire off the M197 before testing. Even if the company doing the MPI was not set up to shoot, i.e. has a range, it would be an easy fix. They would just need a Bullet Box, a mounting fixture, and some one to pull the trigger. Then do an MPI test. It seems like it would be a cheap but very valuable tool for the testing company to possess. (In the long run) Now assuming Spike's has a place to shoot, all they would have to do is get the barrels and bolts sent to them, instead of straight to the testing company, fire off an M197 box'em up and send them out to test. In that scenario they would only be out the additional shipping. Still this doesn't add up to 2-300 Dollars more.

    Now if Spike's was smart, they could set up the company with the tank, about the price of a new Spike's Tactical Wagon, and get a deal on there testing. This would be good for the industry, because the testing company then could offer it to the other manufactures, of course they would charge the other guys more. This would put Spike's in a pretty good position to continue to offer the prices they do.
    Building a fixture is not cheap. Getting people (qualified people) to run it isn't cheap. You also do not want to get into MPI. Why you ask? Because all of the certs and keeping at least one employee up to speed with all the reqs is mission impossible for a small business. Doing MPI correct (to conform to the TDP) is an art unto itself.

    Now more on price: It seems to me if I remember correctly that both Colt and FN were able bid there M-4 contracts for around 500.00. Only to discover that Colt had Intellectual Property Rights, and then the price went to 1700.00. This for some reason doesn't seem right to me. I know our government has spent $6000.00 on a toilet seat, but I paid 19 at my local Lowe's for a cushion-y padded one. It would seem that Colt could pass those savings onto the consumer, which it hasn't. Is there a sort of "price fixing" in the industry that Spike's is not abiding by? I do know there where allegations of fixing on TOS, but I have no info if they where true or not.
    Your assumptions on price are incorrect. Colt charges close to $1K per rifle to the US Military.

    There is no "price fixing" in the gun industry. There is however a fair wage earned policy that most companies try and follow.

    It also seems that most of this boils down to Fanboy vs. Anti-Fanboy. There's a thread for the Fanboy, but not one describing the Anti. Anti-Fanboy is someone who looks down on fellas wearing wrangler because they wear Diesel, and everything else is crap. I myself don't give a ratsxxx what I where as long as it works, as intended.
    An anti-fan boy would be someone against childish, immature behavior. They would also value common sense, and have the ability to realize when a manufacturer is blowing smoke or not.

    Also having banned Spike's from the site, and then starting a bashing thread, kind of seems a little childish. If you want answers, why the ban. I do agree since Tom stated he would post the certs then he should, and should have already.
    I believe that Tom stated on TOS that he wanted nothing to do with the forum any more. So that would be the reason for the banning.

    At the same time; it used to be, in America, that you took a man at his word, until you had reason to believe otherwise. You ended up getting screwed a bit that first time, but you learned. Sadly this is not the case anymore.
    Unfortunately in this industry, gun manufacturers have to be viewed as nothing better than a used car salesman. Would you trust what a car dealer told you about a car you are wanting to buy? I wouldn't.

    I follow the "Trust, but verify" rule. If you don't want to do that, then that is fine.


    C4

  8. #1308
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    VA/OH
    Posts
    29,630
    Feedback Score
    33 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    I asked Doublestar why they had prolific use of the word "mil-spec" on their website...they blamed it on their web designer...but the website had last been edited at least six months prior...

    It is always someone elses fault isn't it.



    C4

  9. #1309
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    3,704
    Feedback Score
    43 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 87GN View Post
    I asked Doublestar why they had prolific use of the word "mil-spec" on their website...they blamed it on their web designer...but the website had last been edited at least six months prior...
    Good point and one that has been made in this thread by Rob_s as well. The term mil-spec is certainly overused. Often, a company will use it to refer to one component of a rifle like a receiver extension or chrome lining in the barrel, bolt carrier or gas key, and then infer that it applys to the whole gun. The interesting thing is that when called out on it, most typically backtrack and clarify the facts, whether that is relative to barrel steel, testing processes or whatever may apply to that particular manufacturer. "Mil-spec" has become an abused buzzword used to sell guns and make customers feel like they are getting a superior weapon. However, very few of them go to the trouble to outline specifically what makes their gun mil-spec. I hate to use BCM as an example again because this is not a BCM vs. Spikes issue, but they are an example of how to do things right and they do a good job of communicating to the buyer exactly what they do to make their guns follow the TDP.
    Last edited by mtdawg169; 08-13-10 at 11:21.

  10. #1310
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE FL
    Posts
    14,148
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    re: the "fanboyism" and "anit-fanboyism" comments...

    What has been conveyed to me behind the scenes by many consumers is that they object to the whole testosterone, spider, "shoot 'em in the face" marketing strategy and corporate image. The concern there is twofold. One aspect is that many people don't want to be, or professionally can't be, associated with that kind of image for one reason or another. The other is that the logical extension is that if the company is so focused on image how focused can they be on product? For every guy that says "why do you care, it's just a logo?" is another guy saying "well then why did the company have to pick such a stupid/obnoxious/lame/gay logo?" If, in fact, a company is equally concerned with marketing and image independent of the product then at what point does that marketing and image start to take a toll on the product? At what point does it simply become about checking off boxes on a Chart (that most consumers don't take the time to really understand anyway) vs. actually understanding what all those boxes (and more) really mean down to the molecular level? I have been fortunate enough to speak with and exchange correspondence with some guys that really, really, really get this shit at that level, and I can tell you they aren't out there selling t-shirts.

    Spike's, frankly, doesn't give a damn because they have a huge customer base that eats this shit up, and buys not only the guns but the patches, stickers, and t-shirts. But there is a backlash to this. Look at any company that has expanded their marketing to an image or a lifestyle beyond simply that of the product. Whether you take the AAC or Harley approach and actually try to manufacture a sub-set of a lifestyle or whether you take the Spike's approach and market to it, there are downsides and backlashes. For the manufacturer the good news is that those that buy into it will be RABID fans. You don't even have to do anything because the product has become so ingrained into the person's being that they will defend it as if you kicked one of their kids. But the people that don't like the image to begin with are only going to be further pushed away.

    None of which changes the fact that, IMHO, the Spike's M4LE in basic trim is the best $800 AR on the market. In fact, I think it may well be the best factory-built complete <$1000 AR on the market. Whether or not you can get something "better" at $1001 may or may not be the case, but not everyone is going to have that extra $1, or "need" that "better".

Page 131 of 140 FirstFirst ... 3181121129130131132133 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •