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Thread: 7.5 inch AR-15 reliability

  1. #81
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    Well sure. If you have no idea what you are going to use in the middle of the night and have your weapon in pieces, I suppose you would have an issue. I know what my go to is. I don't have it laying around, taken apart. I doubt others do either whether it be a 9mm, shot gun, or 7.5" AR in 5.56.
    Why would you need to search for mags or ammo? That doesn't even make since.

    You missed the point of the modularity of the AR. If you have a need or situation to use a 7.5" you can. Use the same lower with a multitude of other combinations. The mission dictates the need.
    It's much more cost effective than having several different weapons that may or may not have a $200 tax stamp attached.
    I'm looking at the 300 AAC in a short barrel for CQC.

    I didn't compare ballistics to a 12 gauge shot gun. That is certainly quieter isn't it. No chance of collateral damage there, let alone over penetration.
    Massive damage?
    5.56 compared to a .22? Really?

    From a 7.5" 5.56 I still have a 62 gr. HP traveling at 2000 fps. It will cause damage and it is lethal.

    As I said before, my go to is a Glock 23 with a TLR1 on it. I also have a 12 gauge Coach Gun with Low Recoil Buck on the stock.
    My 7.5" AR is suppressed but it still would not be my first choice, as I've stated, for HD.
    But it would non the less be effective at those distances, again, with proper ammo. And if necessary, will penetrate body armor.

    Bottom line is use what you are comfortable with. Use what the situation calls for.
    Last edited by shadow65; 01-16-11 at 19:03.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow65 View Post
    Totally agree.
    I would never carry shorter than a 10.3" in a combat zone.
    My 11.5" has never missed a beat. Oddly, my 10.5" has better accuracy.
    I'd stick with my 16" noveske recee. I have issues here and there with my LMT so it would stay home. My 7.5" would have no place anywhere I might have to shoot past 100 yards.
    Omi R.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow65 View Post
    Well sure. If you have no idea what you are going to use in the middle of the night and have your weapon in pieces, I suppose you would have an issue. I know what my go to is. I don't have it laying around, taken apart. I doubt others do either whether it be a 9mm, shot gun, or 7.5" AR in 5.56.
    Why would you need to search for mags or ammo? That doesn't even make since.

    I didn't compare ballistics to a 12 gauge shot gun. That is certainly quieter isn't it. No chance of collateral damage there, let alone over penetration.
    Massive damage?
    5.56 compared to a .22?

    As I said before, my go to is a Glock 23 with a TLR1 on it. I also have a 12 gauge Coach Gun with Low Recoil Buck on the stock.
    My 7.5" AR is suppressed but it still would not be my first choice, as I've stated, for HD.
    But it would non the less be effective at those distances, again, with proper ammo. And if necessary, will penetrate body armor.
    I dobut that your AR stays in the 7.5 configuration with that specific ammo handy. I find it hard to believe that someone who owns 4+ uppers or 4+ SBR uppers only owns 5.56 ones and only has 77grn TAP stuff loaded in mags. I would find it hard to believe you don't have mags loaded with plinking ammo near that same bag of goodies you take to the range. I also find it hard to believe you have an eotech that stays on that upper with fresh batteries in it.

    I 100% agree that you need to feel confident in your weapon, and that if you are like Grant and say your pistol shooting sucks and you rickroll with your SBR than you should use that.

    Rifle rounds going 2000+ fps clearly have less potential of collateral damage than a 12ga right? Not so much.

    I fail to see why the perfect measurement of home defense now days is 1) is it loud? My baby ears! and 2) Can it defeat 10 people wearing body armor all trying to steal my 30 inch TV at the same time?

    I am not even an Infantry MOS, yet my hearing is quite terrible already. If I shoot someone twice with a .45 and he is still standing I still have 11 rounds of .45acp in the mag to pick up a headshot. My first thoughts on a 2 way range are not those two above.

    Quote Originally Posted by miamitj View Post
    I'd stick with my 16" noveske recee. I have issues here and there with my LMT so it would stay home. My 7.5" would have no place anywhere I might have to shoot past 100 yards.
    I would love to see what you say in court after taking a 100+ yard kill shot in a home defense scenario with an evil looking assault rifle that is registered as an NFA item when high cap magazines alone are WMDs.

    There is no way you could use deadly force in that situation, and using a weapon like that to engage those targets is going to make your neighbors think you are not responsible -- seeking legal action.
    Last edited by fhpchris; 01-16-11 at 19:11.
    USMC vet.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    Do you actually think robbers with body armor are going to come to your house? Mall ninja much?
    Don't use insults to make up for whit. Here is an NGIC report indicating how in Miami, where I live, thieves are targeting LEO's for their body armor. Not common and would almost certainly never happen to me but its just another plus on the side of an SBR for HD.

    This is not a discussion on how theives are using body armor but rather the pros that make a 7.5" SBR an option. My comment was simply noting that.

    http://publicintelligence.info/NGIC-...ealCopGuns.pdf

    Do a google search, it happens more then you think.

    What I type below is more written for an actual unit or PSD, not for some cowboy home defense. Dude.. Get a 12GA. Your leet AR weighs almost the same as the Benelli M1014 I was issued. I will throw my semi auto 12GA up against some 7.5 AR any day. Ill bring slugs for the magical pixies with armor too!
    Your talking about a heavier, much longer weapon (8" longer then my 7.5" suppressed) with a considerable difference in ammo capacity. Your also talking about an item that is a much more demanding and requires quite a bit more training and practice with. An item I have nowhere near the training on I have with my AR. Sorry buddy, my 7.5" AR is in front of my shotty in my safe.

    The thought of bringing 3 more inches with a 10.5-11.5 inch gun is the way to go for an AR. I just made the case that a full size AKs-74 is also 3 inches longer with the stock folded. It is long enough to conceal under a longer jacket still. I hate to show a movie reference as an example of a certain scenario and gear selection but the bank heist in Heat is a good example of how small some of those rifles are and how easy they are to conceal.

    If you are going to dabble in 5.56 with a little 7.5 inch barrel you might as well just use 5.7x28... That at least takes care of the deafening concussion and the concealability. The overall length of a P90(under 20 inches with a 10+ inch barrel) and the 50 round mag make up for a few of the AR's short comings with that short of a barrel. We all know the KAC PDW is tits, but ammo and mags are not exactly available everywhere.

    I have fired a real MP5. You can wear all the body armor you want. Unless you are wearing it on your head you got real problems. I will not even go into the argument of sound level when things like the SD6, MP5/10, and UMP exist. 9mm/10mm/45acp can get the job done in that range. The P90 isn't my first choice, but I would rather have it than some 7.5 AR. And the Glock 19 with 33 rounders clearly has an edge in concealment and weight over some 25 inch long ar. One person could carry 4 loaded Glock 19s with 33 rounders for that same weight. Hell The Glock 21SF with the 30 round vector extensions works too. 30 rounds of 45 ACP ends fights less than 50 meters.

    All of those options are lighter, quiter, shorter and have better ballistics.
    Hi cap pistols: Glock 19/ all the others
    Subs with extending or folding stocks: MP5/UMP/AK74u
    PDWs: P90/KAC PDW/MP7
    Shorter Rifles with folding stocks: G36c/AK/Galil/FNC /FAL/G3/Sig 552/HK33/ and more
    Can you show me where a 9mm, .40, .45 or even the 5.7 (in avail ammo variants) has better "ballistics" then a 7.5" ar? Not military ball ammo but against something more suited for close range SD.
    Omi R.

  5. #85
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    Actually I keep my Tac ammo with my go to rifle, so yes, it is seperate from range ammo.

    Do some checking on over penetration of HP 5.56 in urban/housing scenarios. You'll be suprised.
    We used Fed TRU 55 gr. for that reason. Most often it will disenegrate after hitting drywall before it can caused collateral damage.
    Too many get caught up in M855. Who would use that for home defense?

    Check out the Barnes TSX. It's designed to expand at lower velocities.
    Independent Field Testing/R & D

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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    I would love to see what you say in court after taking a 100+ yard kill shot in a home defense scenario with an evil looking assault rifle that is registered as an NFA item when high cap magazines alone are WMDs.

    There is no way you could use deadly force in that situation, and using a weapon like that to engage those targets is going to make your neighbors think you are not responsible -- seeking legal action.
    What are you talking about ???? Who said anything about a 100 yard kill shot in a HD scenario? Do you know how to read? My comment was in response to using a 7.5" in theater (shadow65's comment).

    What do you mean you cant use deadly force in that scenario? WTF are you talking about buddy?
    Omi R.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    I am not even an Infantry MOS, yet my hearing is quite terrible already. If I shoot someone twice with a .45 and he is still standing I still have 11 rounds of .45acp in the mag to pick up a headshot. My first thoughts on a 2 way range are not those two above.
    You were not infantry yet you were issues a Benelli M1014? What training do you have with a shotgun?

    Have you ever even tried to hit an ocular cavity on a moving target while you are moving?

    Other then your non infantry MOS what training do you really have? And please don't tell me you are FHP and went through their academy as an attempt to impress me.
    Omi R.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamitj View Post
    Don't use insults to make up for whit. Here is an NGIC report indicating how in Miami, where I live, thieves are targeting LEO's for their body armor. Not common and would almost certainly never happen to me but its just another plus on the side of an SBR for HD.
    Are you running a meth ring outside of your home and expect rival gangs to show up and whack you? I would bet you could not find even three incidents of normal people having to defend against robbers with armor. 1997 Bank of America robbery -- YES. Stealing my TV? -- NO.

    This is not a discussion on how theives are using body armor but rather the pros that make a 7.5" SBR an option. My comment was simply noting that.

    http://publicintelligence.info/NGIC-...ealCopGuns.pdf

    Do a google search, it happens more then you think.
    Pages ago someone asked WHAT WILLL YOU USE IT FOR?

    Home defense is not a reason to need a 7.5 inch upper over a 10.5-11.5 inch one.

    If you are trying to rob a bank and have an illegally modded full auto 7.5inch pistol with extra concealed Beta C mags, I would understand not wanting anyone to see it -- thus the need for concealment that a 7.5 will provide and the need to shoot through armor the cops/guards might have.

    Your talking about a heavier, much longer weapon (8" longer then my 7.5" suppressed) with a considerable difference in ammo capacity. Your also talking about an item that is a much more demanding and requires quite a bit more training and practice with. An item I have nowhere near the training on I have with my AR. Sorry buddy, my 7.5" AR is in front of my shotty in my safe.
    I would think a suppressed, stock extended 7.5 inch is every bit of 30 inches or more. The benelli is longer, but not that much more so. I would much rather have 7+1 rounds of 12ga than 30 rounds of 7.5 inch, ear bleeding, 5.56. The robber with body armor will die from loss of blood from his ear drums. Your magic carbine will not only eat its own suppressor but it will also be as long as a full 16 inch long carbine or real 12ga shotgun.

    I had to clear buildings with an M16A2, so you will have to really work hard extolling the virtues of the 7.5 vs 10.5 inch debate personally. I carried my uber heavy Benelli for 14 hours at a time so I agree it isn't the lightest and most compact option. It is not exactly like running around my house with a M240 either though.


    Can you show me where a 9mm, .40, .45 or even the 5.7 (in avail ammo variants) has better "ballistics" then a 7.5" ar? Not military ball ammo but against something more suited for close range SD.
    I know people that laugh at 5.56 lethality from M4 length barrels, yet alone 7.5 inchers. Everyone here is saying that a 7.5 is clearly 50 yards or less. I have knowledge of a military MP making a headshot kill with a M9 at over 90 yards on someone with an AK. I will not bother to break out my ruler, but my USP is not exactly 30 inches long either.

    Is the need of home defense 100+ yard issues? Hell no! We might be talking more like 7 yards or less here -- a far cry from that 100. If you said SRT/SWAT and not Home Defense, I would never have bothered saying anything. You sound like someone who has little to no clue what he is doing. Yet you are chastising him because you want to know his "creds as an operator."

    Quote Originally Posted by miamitj View Post
    What are you talking about ???? Who said anything about a 100 yard kill shot in a HD scenario? Do you know how to read? My comment was in response to using a 7.5" in theater (shadow65's comment).

    What do you mean you cant use deadly force in that scenario? WTF are you talking about buddy?
    YOU are the one talking about your safe. I am pretty sure none of that crap is going to end up, "in theater".

    Read the whole last page. Its all about home defense! Not SWAT, not SRT, not IN THEATER. No one in theater is using a 7.5 AR. The thought that you bring that up shows your clueless.

    Quote Originally Posted by miamitj View Post
    You were not infantry yet you were issues a Benelli M1014? What training do you have with a shotgun?

    Have you ever even tried to hit an ocular cavity on a moving target while you are moving?

    Other then your non infantry MOS what training do you really have? And please don't tell me you are FHP and went through their academy as an attempt to impress me.
    I had to qualify with the Joint Service Shotgun when I was issued one in order to carry it on duty while I was in the Marine Corps overseas. Some of us Non-Infantry guys got the opportunity for additional training so we could work the gates alongside the MPs after 9/11. We worked both the main gates and the gates where trucks and commercial vehicles came in, and inspected them for things like bombs. Long shifts, but it was fun and I learned alot. I carried a loaded weapon with a real autosear on duty? Have you? I carried weapons in positions where I might have to take a 100 yard shot at a bad guy. I would not be thinking about pansy things like ZOMG MY LITTLE GIRL EARS!!!, I would be thinking of proper authority to use deadly force -- both as a CWP now and as a Marine Before. I know what it is like to work a 14 hour shift that makes you tired, yet still be on your game to look for threats. It is not an easy job. I am lucky I did not have to do that job in the sandbox.

    I bet you have essentially no training of any kind. Yet you talk about hitting a cavity of a real person. I was lucky to never have to use my shotgun or M16 against a live person. I would never brag about how good I was at shooting real people, including which people I killed while in duty. That stuff is for posers, not operators.

    FHP refers to a ex cop mustang I used to own, not any of my, "Professional Creds"

    I have no need to impress the mall ninja internet police.
    Last edited by fhpchris; 01-16-11 at 19:58.
    USMC vet.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    I know people that laugh at 5.56 lethality from M4 length barrels, yet alone 7.5 inchers.
    I asked you for data not hearsay. Do you have any or are you just going to continue to rant?

    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    YOU are the one talking about your safe. I am pretty sure none of that crap is going to end up, "in theater".
    We were talking about someone bringing a 7.5" in theater. Comprehension is key!

    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    Read the whole last page. Its all about home defense! Not SWAT, not SRT, not IN THEATER. No one in theater is using a 7.5 AR. The thought that you bring that up shows your clueless.
    On PG 4 variablebinary discusses using a 7.5" in a combat zone. Next post Shadow65 responds on the topic on a 7.5" in a combat zone. I was responding to both of them in reference to combat zones.

    AGAIN, reading comprehension buddy. Before you call someone clueless you might want to learn to read and comprehend simple text.

    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    I had to qualify with the Joint Service Shotgun when I was issued one in order to carry it on duty while I was in the Marine Corps overseas
    Wow, yelp qualifying ... thats some real training there buddy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by fhpchris View Post
    I carried a loaded weapon with a real autosear on duty? Have you? I carried weapons in positions where I might have to take a 100 yard shot at a bad guy. I would not be thinking about pansy things like ZOMG MY LITTLE GIRL EARS!!!, I would be thinking of proper authority to use deadly force -- both as a CWP now and as a Marine Before. I know what it is like to work a 14 hour shift that makes you tired, yet still be on your game to look for threats. It is not an easy job. I am lucky I did not have to do that job in the sandbox.

    I bet you have essentially no training of any kind. Yet you talk about hitting a cavity of a real person. I was lucky to never have to use my shotgun or M16 against a live person. I would never brag about how good I was at shooting real people, including which people I killed while in duty. That stuff is for posers, not operators.

    FHP refers to a ex cop mustang I used to own, not any of my, "Professional Creds"

    I have no need to impress the mall ninja internet police.
    You have no idea what my credentials are or what by background is. Unlike you I don't brag about what I have done or my training. I do not feel the need to add what service I was in, and I was, what my rating was, or where I have been.

    As for my training, you stated "I bet you have essentially no training of any kind". Ill take that bet. If you want to have a pissing contest on what classes and with who we have taken I am game. But I am pretty sure you will get your dick chopped off on this one.

    Better yet, why not just stop being a condescending asshole and talk facts instead of smack.
    Omi R.

  10. #90
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    The body armor issue is legitimate. Not something you see every day by any means but trust me, it's out there and being used.
    Bad guy was tracked down to a housing project after a shooting. He had body armor on. I had dealings with him a week prior when I responded to a domestic at his apartment.

    I personally am not a shot gun guy. I hated the 870 I had for work. I do like my Coach Gun. Easier to maneuver and my wife can easily use it.

    No need for anyone to get defensive in these discussions. Everyone has an opinion. For me, I would not feel under gunned with a 7.5" 5.56.

    So far as concealment. Remember Catrina? A 7.5" could easily be carried fully assembled as a pistol or rifle in a gym bag. Or under a coat on a single point sling.
    In that scenario, trying to get my family out of harms way, I'm not trying to advertise with a 37" or longer weapon.
    I'm not taking shots at 200 yards.

    I want something high capacity, can take a shot at 100 yards, will neutralize a threat, and is concealable, along with my side arm.
    For me, a 7.5" 5.56 fills the bill. If it doesn't for you, then that's your decision. Doesn't make either of us wrong.

    If I'm in a situation where I need to defend myself and my family, I'll use whatever is necessary and close whether it's in the home, outside the home, in a disaster, or if it's yours or mine.
    When that happens, all these ballistics discussions don't have a lot of meaning.
    Independent Field Testing/R & D

    Better to die for something than live for nothing

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