Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 39

Thread: water shooting

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    45
    Feedback Score
    0
    FWIW, early models like the 601, 602 and early 603 had non-drain hole screws - something guys doing retro builds actually look for. With input from SEAL teams and others, the M16A1 was standardized with a buffer tube screw with a drain hole, which doesn't do anything for clearing the barrel, but definitely helps drain any water in the receiver extension. Along with chrome chambers and better extractor springs, probably one of the more useful improvements made to the weapon.

    As an aside, the Mk4 Mod 0 had a Kal-Guard finish on all surfaces to inhibit corrosion, and was rated to I believe, 70 meters unprotected. FWIW, Victor at US anodizing offers a 'Navy finish' that is likely as close as you can get - although any Moly finish is pretty mmuch the same thing, apparently he does EVERYTHING, including BCG and TG, which brings up interesting tolerance issues.

    I doubt a SEAL would ever put a condom on weapon for such use, since as many have said, you want to charge the weapon slowly to let it drain - a condom would be a problem there. That is an old school way to keep out grit however. I can see them using bags, but always used to laugh when I saw those Ranger commercials back in the '80s where they rise slowly out of the swamp, weapons at the ready. Definitely drain the barrel. Not as glamorous as bagging the weapon though, LOL.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    9,246
    Feedback Score
    28 (100%)
    The ability to fire quickly upon breaking the surface was written into the requirements document for the SCAR. With three tubes to drain on the M4, it takes significantly more time to safely fire after surfacing than the SCAR does. This test is what virtually precluded DI as an operation system for the SCAR.

    Whether or not surfacing and immediately firing is a necessary action for someone is up to them, but I can say that only one segment of the SCAR using community was insistent on this capability.

    FWIW- the draining method as described by JSantoro above will enable an M4/M16 to fire in a few seconds.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    888
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Morg308 View Post
    ......I doubt a SEAL would ever put a condom on weapon for such use, since as many have said, you want to charge the weapon slowly to let it drain - a condom would be a problem there......
    Ummm... hello! The SEALs in the movie GI Jane did it, so me thinks it must be true.
    S/F
    Paul

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    27,214
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)
    I had this discussion with Ken Elmore a long time ago. He broke it down like JSantoro. Break the seal on the action to get the bulk of the water out, and then go to town.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    132
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke_Y View Post
    ^^ Also realize that in many of the OTB testing videos you may see that don't use some version of what is described above; the weapon may successfully fire, and fire several times. What you don't see is that the the barrel is likely ringed/ruined...
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuckatelli
    The saltwater really shortens the life of the weapon. Yuo could easily tell who was in F Co 2/1 even in the middle of the desert....we had the rifles that looked like RRA match rifles from a distance.
    Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
    "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
    -Ernest Hemingway

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    9,246
    Feedback Score
    28 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrasa View Post
    Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
    Having a water obstruction in the bore will result in a huge pressure spike, in front of as well as behind the bullet, resulting in distortion of the barrel.

    Salt water greatly accelerates corrosion, especially in military weapons that have to endure destructive cleaning processes that remove surface finishes that would normally protect the metal.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    395
    Feedback Score
    13 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke_Y View Post
    ^^ Also realize that in many of the OTB testing videos you may see that don't use some version of what is described above; the weapon may successfully fire, and fire several times. What you don't see is that the the barrel is likely ringed/ruined...
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrasa View Post
    Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
    F2S Got there before me but yes that was what I was referring to.

    If you search videos for Over The Beach Testing or OTB Testing, you will find several examples of rifles (mostly pistons) being fired immediately or almost immediately after surfacing. Some (HK) even while basically still submerged. You wont see them doing what JSantoro discussed. It's cool but, I wouldn't want those barrels (post testing) on my weapon...

    When firing with a full/partial barrel obstruction the projectile will slow, the pressure will spike, and something has to give. If there is not a catastrophic failure, ringed, bulged, washboarded barrels are often the result.

    While the weapon may still fire and function, that damage is often detrimental to accuracy and compromises the structural integrity of the barrel. That is what I was referring to when I said ruined.

    As it relates to the SCAR I am not qualified to say. If the requirement was for the ability to fire quickly upon breaking the surface, that is slightly different than immediately. Though that difference is probably subjective if someone is shooting at you. I can see the need for some small user groups... But, I would place it in the highest forms of abuse category. I would expect that barrels subjected to much of that to have a fairly short service life cycle.

    Maybe someone can elaborate in regards to the SCAR.
    My fear is that ahh, the whole island will ahh, become so overly populated, that it will tip over and ahh, and capsize...
    Hank Johnson (D) GA YouTube

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    New Mexico Territory
    Posts
    105
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Country DeVil View Post
    I want to see if I can swim across my pool in one breath pop up in the shallow end and shoot a squirrel.
    Awesome.


    Riley~~~
    God created men, but Sam Colt made them equal.

    How long will it be before I get banned again?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    168
    Feedback Score
    0
    I haven't heard of the Seals doing anything special to the M4 for water use. I did hear they use a Lube called "Marine Pal".
    After a mission. The guns get flushed out with fresh water. Dried. Regular gun cleaning procedure and relubed with"Marine Pal".
    I think they chose that lube as it doesn't wash off with water.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,100
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    I had this discussion with Ken Elmore a long time ago. He broke it down like JSantoro. Break the seal on the action to get the bulk of the water out, and then go to town.
    This procedure is also outlined in the -10 Operator's Manual, under "Operations Under Unusual Conditions-Fording".
    “A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves.” -Lao Tzu


    http://quibphotography.com/

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •