Q on support hand placement and slinging up

[cobra90gt]

Recently attended another LE patrol rifle training class and now have a couple of questions (did find an informative thread via search https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42168 but our ARs are set up differently). This is going to be long-winded, FYI...

I would like to pick your brains RE placing support hand on/below/around the lower handguard and "slinging up".


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Background - here is what is mandated by department policy:

Pool (bleh) ARs, one in each car. Adjustable two-point sling with one attachment point at the buttstock and the other being on the front swing swivel. Surefire Forend weapon light ("500" model, http://www.surefire.com/DedicatedForendWeaponLights ).
Factory FSB and fixed iron rear sight (no carry handle). No optic.
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First issue, the sling:

At a previous LE basic rifle school, the instructor suggested using the "hasty sling" method. I utilized it and found it to be quite steady.

At this recent class, the instructor dismissed the hasty sling technique and instead related that students only tighten up their slings to take out the slack and make it snug. I found it to be less supportive compared to what I was doing before, but still worked with it.

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Second issue, the support hand:

Recent class taught us to place the support hand under the lower handguard, in front of the delta ring, using the "vee" notch between the thumb and index finger. I'll try to word this as best as I can:

Extend your support arm/hand out from your body, then turn the palm of your hand inwards towards your face, lay that grip underneath the lower handguard - that was the support hand grip taught.

I've seen the thumb/finger pointing method for the support hand become more popular to "drive" the rifle towards the target (using rails, VFGs, etc).

Prior to this class I was resting the lower handguard in the palm of my support hand (with fingers relaxed around the rest of the handguard) and not using the soft "vee" between my thumb and index finger.

I found that using the soft "vee" part of the hand for support tended to make that area of the hand quite "raw" during each string of fire.

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I'll be using the "policy" method out in the field, of course.


Question time:

Now, for those using regular handguards with 2 point adjustable slings, I would love to hear how you are placing your support hand under the lower handguard and how you are slinging up (ie -hasty sling or different method?).


I would gladly welcome feedback from anyone who took the time to read the thread, including competitive shooters and those in LE.

Thanks.

[Failure2Stop]

Sounds like you went to a bulls-eye oriented class.
Anyone that would pretend that you can perform effective combative application of the carbine without positive and firm control of the front-end has no business training those that go into harm's way.

A "V" grip is big with the bulls-eye/highpower crowd, for good reason, though that reason has almost but not quite completely no application to gunfighting.

Two point slings attached at the FSB and sling swivel at the toe of the stock have little utility for anything other than tansporting the weapon from point A to B without dragging it in the dirt.

Frankly, it sounds like your training time is being misspent unless you intend on attending high-power competitions.

[thopkins22]

I'm not a pro nor am I really that proficient of an amateur, but I'm great at reading and digesting stuff from people that are at the top.

From Paul Howe's May 2010 Newsletter. http://www.combatshootingandtactics....date_May10.pdf

In the end,
you need to put your front hand in one spot where you can shoot standing, kneeling
and prone and not change your hand with each position. Learn about where to index
your firing hand and then position your head/eye in the same spot for each position.
Once you learn to shoot, now figure out where to put your light so your day grip and
night grip are one in the same. This will keep your system simple.

Since you can't move your light nor the way you activate it, grab the fore end where you can activate it and learn to shoot it. Figure out a way to get be inside the sling so that it doesn't interfere with that.

I'd see if something like this would be acceptable so that you can run your sling in a better manner without altering the weapons. http://www.blueforcegear.com/product...d=5&prod_id=81

[CGSteve]

Sounds like you went to a bulls-eye oriented class.
Anyone that would pretend that you can perform effective combative application of the carbine without positive and firm control of the front-end has no business training those that go I to harm's way.

A "V" grip is big with the bulls-eye/highpower crowd, for good reason, though that reason has almost but not quite completely no application to gunfighting.

Two point slings attached at the FSB and sling swivel at the toe of the stock have little utility for anything other than tansporting the weapon from point A to B without dragging it in the dirt.

Frankly, it sounds like your training time is being misspent unless you intend on attending high-power competitions.

Can you expound on the bolded area please? Our patrol rifles are set up with slings exactly like the OP's, except that we have no lights (or rails for that matter) mounted.

I'm guessing it is because the side sling mount that is under the FSB gives a sling placement that can possibly obstruct, or hinder the front end of the weapon?

[thopkins22]

Can you expound on the bolded area please? Our patrol rifles are set up with slings exactly like the OP's, except that we have no lights (or rails for that matter) mounted.

I'm guessing it is because the side sling mount that is under the FSB gives a sling placement that can possibly obstruct, or hinder the front end of the weapon?

Obviously not F2S, but....

Get in the sling and drop the rifle...it should be apparent. Then imagine the sling being attached to the side up front and closer to the receiver extension in the rear(rather than low on the stock,) and how that might improve things.

[cobra90gt]

Failure2Stop - Well, this certainly wasn't a "marksmanship only" course by any means. I get what you're saying about the "highpower" style support hand grip. The "vee" front/support hand grip defintely felt less supportive on the line (IMHO).

It was an introductory rifle class to certify street officers for patrol rifle usage (including intro to the weapon itself, learning different shooting positions, transitions, malfunctions, basic movements, cleaning, etc). There is "more to come" in the way of future classes, per the firearms instructors.

BTW - I should have been more specific RE our rear sling mounting point on the buttstock. Our pool ARs utilize the Midwest Industries "MCTAR-TS2." Was told that this helps avoid the "twisting" effect on the buttstock while in a tightly slung shooting position.

Rear sling mount image (linked to MI's website): http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/...mctarts1pu.gif

FWIW - This most recent class instructor was (is) a Marine, as was my other rifle class instructor in the past. Again, just digesting the info and comparing it to my previous experience/knowledge. Hope I'm not making "chess out of checkers" by asking about the support hand grip...?


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thopkins22 - Thanks for posting that excerpt from Howe's newsletter. I downloaded the PDF and read through the rest of it as well (good reading for anyone else browsing this thread, liked the story RE student "BT" as well).

Additionally, any rifle modifications to our pool ARs are not gonna happen (due to policy reasons ). I've seen very positive reviews of the BFG UWL in the past though, appreciate the suggestion.

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I welcome other comments from others utilizing factory handguards (or a Surefire Forend weapon light) with a two-point sling. Thx.