Training on a 25 Yard Range

[Cobra66]

Due to a couple of recent "events" at my range, the ability to shoot at targets closer than 25 yards has been restricted. While this doesn't matter to the many "bullseye" type shooters at my club it will obviously affect the action pistol or SD oriented shooter like myself. While I have used 25 yards and even 50 yards in my training, it has been more to stress accuracy than to develop speed, but now that I may be limited to 25 yards for a while, what is the best way to train on such a range?

For example, if I am practicing presentations, what would be a reasonable par time to draw and hit the "A" zone on a typical IPSC target? My duty qualification is all done a ranges of 15 yards or less, so how can I prepare for it without letting myself become too slow?

It will still be possible for me to shoot a closer ranges but that can only be done when there is no one else using the range and I can go down range. There are many at my club who are trying to get the rules changed, but it is impossible convincing the "bullseye" types who learned to shoot in the 1940s and have never heard of Jeff Cooper.

Any thoughts from the training gurus or other shooters in a similar predicament?

[John_Wayne777]

Due to a couple of recent "events" at my range, the ability to shoot at targets closer than 25 yards has been restricted. While this doesn't matter to the many "bullseye" type shooters at my club it will obviously affect the action pistol or SD oriented shooter like myself. While I have used 25 yards and even 50 yards in my training, it has been more to stress accuracy than to develop speed, but now that I may be limited to 25 yards for a while, what is the best way to train on such a range?

You can push speed at 25. Try doing 10 shots at 25 yards in 10 seconds or less. Try doing multiple targets at 25 on the clock. Try working on 3 hits from the holster at 25 in less than 6 seconds.

For example, if I am practicing presentations, what would be a reasonable par time to draw and hit the "A" zone on a typical IPSC target?

From the draw you should be able to make a solid hit pretty close to the same time you would get at say 10 yards. I would shoot for 1.75-2 seconds from a duty type holster for a hit at 25. Yes, that's fast...but it's doable.

You can do all the same drills you normally do, only at 25 yards. Do el-presidente drills...1 reload 2 or 3 drills, hitting a 5.5" NRA bullseye from the draw as fast as possible, etc. With a timer and some creative thinking you should be able to accomplish whatever you need to accomplish. If you work on developing speed and accuracy at 25 you are probably going to find things are easier at closer ranges.

[ST911]

Due to a couple of recent "events" at my range, the ability to shoot at targets closer than 25 yards has been restricted.

What happened?

[COLT6933]

I am surprised your duty qual is only from 15yds and in. We shoot a good deal of our quals at 25 standing and kneeling from cover. IMO nothing changes at 25yds except for a little more distance. That being said you definitely need to train up close as well.

[Cobra66]

Thanks for the replies guys. It is probably a bit of laziness (and an unwillingness to see larger groups) that has me so concerned. That said, I can definitely see how training at 25 yards can be beneficial. The one thing I won't be able to do is training from the "bent elbow" position. I guess what I really need is some time standards as well as drills. I'll head over to Todd Greens site and see what he has for 25 yards, but your ball park numbers should give me an idea of what I should be using as par times.

What happened?

My range has a hill that serves as a backstop. The hill raises a good 100 feet above the firing line of fire. Behind the hill is a rock quarry. The manager of the quarry supposedly brought a bucket of slugs over to the range claiming that they have all come from us. Our "safety" guy said that they were due to bullets striking the ground prior to the backstop and "skipping" over the hill. So rather than trust the range members to ensure that their rounds were impacting the backstop, they just prohibited shooting any closer than 25 yards. Besides "who would want to shoot closer than 25 yards." All that said, we are open to the public 3 days a week and you can imagine the number of people who while aiming at a 25 yard target push the rounds lows and hit short of the berm. The volume of fire from our public days is far more than the volume from our member only days, but the logic eludes the decision makers at this point. Being in the SF bay area, the choice of good ranges is limited and despite the current issue, it really is the best range around.

I am surprised your duty qual is only from 15yds and in. We shoot a good deal of our quals at 25 standing and kneeling from cover. IMO nothing changes at 25yds except for a little more distance. That being said you definitely need to train up close as well.

Nature of the beast I guess. Given the confines of my "jurisdiction" a 25 yard shot would be hard to justify, thus the close range emphasis.

[gringop]

Try this...

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/01/70...aggregate.html

It's all shot at 25 yards and it's plenty challenging. Once you get good at it, challenge the Bullseye guys with it.




Gringop

[MechEng]

I’ve encountered this rule on some public ranges and ranges that have mostly hunters that shoot there.

You can shoot at paper plate size targets, and as mentioned previously, push your speed and accuracy. Then, the next time you get an opportunity to shoot at a closer distance you will be surprised by how much tighter your groups will be. Hitting a 3x5 card quickly at about 7 yards will seem easier.

[NCPatrolAR]

Most grocery stores, schools, etc provide oppertunities for 25 yrd shots. Most police trainers that knock the 25 yrd shot typiclly aren't good at it

[ST911]

Nature of the beast I guess. Given the confines of my "jurisdiction" a 25 yard shot would be hard to justify, thus the close range emphasis.

Most grocery stores, schools, etc provide oppertunities for 25 yrd shots. Most police trainers that knock the 25 yrd shot typiclly aren't good at it

^^ Exactly. ^^

While most OIS are at very close range, longer distances 15yds+ are easy to find in your community.

To determine where your cops should be shooting, go to your local restaurants, grocery stores, schools, businesses, etc and measure the distances from the point of entrance to the point of sale, or other likely point of visibility to confrontation. Measure the distance from your stand-off position to the front door of your banks and convenience stores that are likely to be robbed. Then try to sell the 15yds and less argument. Won't happen.

Cops need to shoot at 25yds...and beyond. And they can do so accurately if time is spent on it. At a minimum, cops should be doing at least familiarization fire at 35-50yds. It is much closer than people will think.

If you're only shooting at a max of 15yds, I hope that you are demanding 100% scores from everyone on that COF. There's no excuse to miss at that distance, especially in a square-range, stand-up, stand-still qualification course.

[Cobra66]

^^ Exactly. ^^

While most OIS are at very close range, longer distances 15yds+ are easy to find in your community.

To determine where your cops should be shooting, go to your local restaurants, grocery stores, schools, businesses, etc and measure the distances from the point of entrance to the point of sale, or other likely point of visibility to confrontation. Measure the distance from your stand-off position to the front door of your banks and convenience stores that are likely to be robbed. Then try to sell the 15yds and less argument. Won't happen.

Cops need to shoot at 25yds...and beyond. And they can do so accurately if time is spent on it. At a minimum, cops should be doing at least familiarization fire at 35-50yds. It is much closer than people will think.

If you're only shooting at a max of 15yds, I hope that you are demanding 100% scores from everyone on that COF. There's no excuse to miss at that distance, especially in a square-range, stand-up, stand-still qualification course.

Totally agree, I/we aren't cops though and METT-T dictates close in shots so I guess the higher ups don't see the need to train/test it.

In the end qualifications are usually just the bare minimum of proficiency as you know and I need to strive well beyond qualification.

I'm beginning to see this whole thing as a challenge that will get me better. Back in the .mil days I could tear up the center of the M9 target at 25 yards, but over the years guess I have become lazy

Try this...

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/01/70...aggregate.html

It's all shot at 25 yards and it's plenty challenging. Once you get good at it, challenge the Bullseye guys with it.




Gringop

Thanks, this looks challenging and is a more comprehensive test that what I have been trying to come up with on my own. Anymore links to drills and standards would be great. I'd be happy to challenge the Bullseye guys, but I don't think they would see the point of shooting from the kneeling, much less the prone.