When to draw your CCW

[mnoe82]

This is a somewhat detailed account so I apologize for the length.

I had an experience tonight that led me to question my CCW deployment.

I was leaving the family cookout tonight when I was passed on a double yellow by a Expedition. The driver and passenger were 20 something Hispanic men. The driver swerved back in front of me narrowly side swiping an oncoming car. As he cut back in front of me I was shaking my head in disbelief. About 500 ft ahead of me is another car and I see the Expedition moving over to try and pass that car as well. We were entering a very curvy section of road and he was unable to pass the other car. So we become a multiple car train following the lead car with several cars behind me. We came to a stop sign and the lead car is about to pull out but stops abruptly causing the Expedition to pump on his brakes. Well I was anticipating the first car's movement so when I looked up and saw brake lights, I slammed mine. I guess the guys in front of me thought I was being aggressive or trying to "get back" at them for passing me. So, they throw it in reverse and back up almost hitting my car. They start yelling out the window and then one of them does the "finger gun" thing and mimes shooting. Then they lean out of the windows and are yelling back towards me with the truck still in reverse.

At this point I reach over and got my gun and put it in my lap.

(I usually carry AIWB, but because of how much I drive for work, I have a SERPA quick disconnect mounted to the side of my console in my car. When I am getting in/out of my car I transition from the SERPA to AIWB and visa versa. I think I saw Todd Jarret or someone like that recommend it for people with long drives, etc. and it has worked well for me over the last year)

They then get out of the truck and start pounding their chests and are making "bring it on" kinds of motions and whatnot. They are still at their SUV but are taking baby steps towards my car.

In my head I'm thinking of a million options but I did nothing. I just sat there with the gun in my lap wondering what to do.

After approximately 5 seconds they sort of sauntered back to their SUV and peeled out. They never walked past the rear bumper of the Expedition.

This leaves me with 2 questions and an observation: What is the right time to point your weapon at someone? What would you have done in the situation? And I think the SERPA was faster, more discrete, and easier to deploy while buckled into a vehicle than drawing from AIWB.

Feel free to comment on anything you would have done differently.

Thanks for the advice.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I would have driven away. If that was not an option I would pointed the waepon as soon as they got out while I was calling 911 got to cover your ass.

[C4IGrant]

This is a somewhat detailed account so I apologize for the length.

I had an experience tonight that led me to question my CCW deployment.

I was leaving the family cookout tonight when I was passed on a double yellow by a Expedition. The driver and passenger were 20 something Hispanic men. The driver swerved back in front of me narrowly side swiping an oncoming car. As he cut back in front of me I was shaking my head in disbelief. About 500 ft ahead of me is another car and I see the Expedition moving over to try and pass that car as well. We were entering a very curvy section of road and he was unable to pass the other car. So we become a multiple car train following the lead car with several cars behind me. We came to a stop sign and the lead car is about to pull out but stops abruptly causing the Expedition to pump on his brakes. Well I was anticipating the first car's movement so when I looked up and saw brake lights, I slammed mine. I guess the guys in front of me thought I was being aggressive or trying to "get back" at them for passing me. So, they throw it in reverse and back up almost hitting my car. They start yelling out the window and then one of them does the "finger gun" thing and mimes shooting. Then they lean out of the windows and are yelling back towards me with the truck still in reverse.

At this point I reach over and got my gun and put it in my lap.

(I usually carry AIWB, but because of how much I drive for work, I have a SERPA quick disconnect mounted to the side of my console in my car. When I am getting in/out of my car I transition from the SERPA to AIWB and visa versa. I think I saw Todd Jarret or someone like that recommend it for people with long drives, etc. and it has worked well for me over the last year)

They then get out of the truck and start pounding their chests and are making "bring it on" kinds of motions and whatnot. They are still at their SUV but are taking baby steps towards my car.

In my head I'm thinking of a million options but I did nothing. I just sat there with the gun in my lap wondering what to do.

After approximately 5 seconds they sort of sauntered back to their SUV and peeled out. They never walked past the rear bumper of the Expedition.

This leaves me with 2 questions and an observation: What is the right time to point your weapon at someone? What would you have done in the situation? And I think the SERPA was faster, more discrete, and easier to deploy while buckled into a vehicle than drawing from AIWB.

Feel free to comment on anything you would have done differently.

Thanks for the advice.

The first thing I would have done when they stopped the vehicle is backed up and gotten out of there (if possible).

Pulling your gun out, but having it hidden is fine. Unless I saw their weapon, I won't be showing them mine.



C4

[mnoe82]

I couldnt back up. There were cars behind me and I thought driving past them would have looked like aggression. The road was so narrow too I may have hit him trying to get past.

[JB2000]

I think you played it right. The one thing I might have done differently is pulled out the cell phone and got on 911. I had an instance one time where someone kept slamming on their brakes in front of me on the highway. When they saw my cell phone come out they calmed right down.

If these guys had come back toward your car and you had displayed your weapon they probably would have left but, depending on the laws of your state, you could have been in violation of the law. At that point it's a judgement call as to how serious of a threat you felt they were.

[SteyrAUG]

The correct answer varies very much by state.

Unfortunately.

[John_Wayne777]

I couldnt back up. There were cars behind me and I thought driving past them would have looked like aggression. The road was so narrow too I may have hit him trying to get past.

If those were the conditions, those were the conditions.

Sometimes you get handed a pile of suck and there's no easy way out of it, especially when you are in traffic. Evasion and avoidance are always to be preferred, but they are not always an option...which is why we carry guns.

In a situation where your back is against the wall and there are some dudes making threatening actions against you that have not yet risen to the level of justifying lethal force, it is wholely appropriate to begin making preparations to defend yourself...and to immediately alert the authorities.

Now as to when is the best time to display the firearm...you seemed to have a good grasp on that. You saw a potential threat and you made ready to deal with it IF it got to that point. In your mind it apparently never really reached the point where you felt the use of lethal force (because pointing a gun is lethal force) was warranted. It sounds like you may have drawn an imaginary line in the sand that they did not actually cross.

My line in the sand in that situation would have been my car. If they approach my vehicle and attempt to open the doors or bust out the windows, they get introduced to Smith & Wesson. At that point it's gone beyond a macho display and it's escalated into a potential carjacking. Whether they intend to carjack me is immaterial...if they are trying to force their way into my vehicle legally it's a carjacking, and that level of offense makes pointing a gun at them a reasonable action.

I would be giving a play-by-play of this to the 911 operator. Assuming your read of the conditions on the road was correct, the thing I would do differently is involve law enforcement as quickly as possible.

[DireWulf]

First post and this looked like a good topic to weigh in on. You did the right thing. Although their "finger gun" bullshit and chest thumping is certainly aggressive, it definitely did not rise to the lethal force response level. Keeping your weapon out of sight was a good call. As a former law enforcement officer and trainer, I often tell CCW students that their firearm is not for threatening people. If they don't have reason to shoot, they should not be displaying it.

I know that there are plenty of people who believe that brandishing a gun can de-escalate a situation, but often times it can escalate one too. God help you if you pull a gun to scare off a loudmouth "chest thumper" and he and his buddies decide to pull their own. You have now escalated an argument to a gun fight. You had better be able to clearly articulate to a jury that his antics gave you or any other reasonable person the belief that your subject had the means, motive and opportunity to cause you serious physical injury or death and you felt the need to employ lethal force to protect your life.

Driving away is probably your best option. Barring that, keeping your head on a swivel and not engaging in any verbal banter while dialing 911 is your next best option. If you're outnumbered like you were and they advance on your car, a hand on your weapon while watching their hands would be appropriate. As soon as they try breaking windows or opening doors, you are in danger of being seriously injured or killed. Put it in gear and drive off. If you hit one of them, so be it. At that point, that level of force is justified and the method of application is of no consequence. Injuring them with the car while escaping is better then being trapped in that car at close range while trying to get off accurate fire. If you're stuck in the car and they're free to move around, you're not in a good place. Especially if they pull guns. Remember, the goal is not killing them and planting a flag on the hill. It's escape and survival. If you can't move the car, I hope you've rehearsed getting your weapon into action whilst seated in a vehicle.

You did a good job with a tricky situation. Now, be very critical of yourself and work on tactics.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Pre-staging the gun for the win I think is a good strategy, I wouldn't call it a draw. I did it the other week when at a drive-thru ATM. Sometimes people just take short cuts thru alleys.

Practice dialing a phone left handed

I have been surprised by my reaction to dipshits like this since I've gotten my CCW. It is not a Rambo response, more like an amused bemusement- are they seriously telegraphing their intent like that?

Bumpers are way less expensive than lawyers for a shoot.

[warpigM-4]

you did the right thing not showing your weapon ,but having it in the ready.if close enough I would got the tag number and cal the police and told them of the actions of the two men .and filed a complaint