Support side shooting with a long gun? Who trains for it?

[Alaskapopo]

I have taken classes that taught you to switch sides when shooting around cover on your support (weak side) side. I have also been taught in other classes its best to just do an isralie (sorry spelling) lean. To lean out and expose more of your body but shoot faster and more accurately making your over all exposure time less. What is everyones take on it here. Who regularly practices with both hands when using a long gun. I practice with my support hand with a pistol in case my weapon hard is injuried.
Pat

[igoswoop]

Training your reaction (support) side is never a bad idea. You mentioned doing so with a pistol for a good reason. The same scenario can apply to a long gun.

A 16" carbine without a metric ton of lights and lasers hanging off the front can be run more effectively one handed than not shooting at all.

Run a few drills on the other shoulder sometime and compare your times. It's a hasty way to do things but the more time you spend outside your comfort zone, the bigger that comfort zone becomes when you step back inside it.

[Belmont31R]

In real life I would probably not try to shoot from my left (support side) unless I could not shoot from my right.


I think for most of us we do not have the range time to learn to shoot from the support side INTENTIONALLY. I do one handed drills, and shoot from my left but its nowhere near as good from my right. I think it would be a bigger liability trying to do this unless for some reason, like a GSW, I cannot shoot from my right.


If you have the training, and the range time to get good with your support then that is one thing. Just like in baseball there are very few true ambi hitters. You dont see people switches sides just because...

[Complication]

To lean out and expose more of your body but shoot faster and more accurately making your over all exposure time less.

If you look at how much is exposed in
1) Strong-side shooting in a support-side lean (i.e. RH shooting leaning out to the left)
vs.
2) Support-side shooting in support-side lean (i.e. LH shooting leaning out to the left)

#1 exposes your entire support shoulder, arm, both eyes, your entire head, and close to 20% of your upper-body.
#2 exposes your support hand, support eye, and maybe 20% of your head.

And I can't imagine anyone shooting so horribly with their support-side that they're better off exposing probably 3-5x more meat just to hit the target (and if that's the case, the solution is to train more, not to let more of you get shot at). Not to mention, support-side shooting, whether with cover or on the square range, will better prepare you if your strong-side is disabled.

"Israeli lean" or whatever it's called sounds like a cop-out propagated by people who are too lazy or afraid to shoot support-side.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

I shoot a decent amount from my left side with a carbine, usually for two reasons:

1. Barricade drills: This is close in (25yd) and its really an exercise in rapidly manipulating the gun to suit available cover. Hits are slower and less accurate than shooting off the dominant side at this distance.

3. Prone/Supported Distance: This is kind of new to me, since I've only now decided to make the leap to learning good trigger manipulation off my left. I'm left eye dominant, and have a bit better vision from my left eye, so to make the most of longer shots (200-300yd) with my non-magnified RDO's, I shoot from my left. I still need to fine-tune the trigger manipulation from my left hand, but I can land much more accurate hits due to the better eyesight.

For everything else, I shoot off the right, since I'm right-handed. I think shoulder swapping is an acceptable time-suck for a precise shot at distance, and its benefits for cover utilization are obvious. If I got my trigger control up to speed on my left, I'm sure I might even use that as my default shooting side for rifle.

As for the cover debate, if the goal is to shoot with minimal danger to yourself, you need to switch shoulders, IMHO. Just look in a mirror.

However, if the situation demands that you act more quickly and more violently, it might be worth the risk to just shoot off the dominant shoulder and expose more. To me, this is only preferable if you need aggressive action to push yourself on the BG.

In my limited experience with airsoft and paintball, aggressiveness and speed trump well thought-out but slowly executed tactics any day. There's a reason why pro's talk about 'aggressiveness of action'.

[Belmont31R]

"Israeli lean" or whatever it's called sounds like a cop-out propagated by people who are too lazy or afraid to shoot support-side.

Some people are naturally better at it than others. For me, even though I do shoot lefty when I can, am much better off trying to hit a target with my right side.


YMMV but Ive seen very few people who are competent switching sides, and I doubt most people have the resources to put 100% effort into learning it. Im not lazy enough to do it but at the same time I cant shoot thousands of rounds a month getting fully proficient in every shooting style. I think most (not all) are better off sticking to their strong side even if it means exposing more of their body. How often are you going to be behind bullet proof cover anyways? Not a car, house, building, ect.

[scjbash]

I think for most of us we do not have the range time to learn to shoot from the support side INTENTIONALLY.

if that's the case, the solution is to train more

Belmont makes a very good point about training more. While I think Complication is right about the need for more training, a lot of us can barely afford to shoot enough to stay close to where we want to be using our strong side. So I think for many people the decision to shoot support side has to be made based on an honest assessment of our skills and the limited round count we can apply to it.

I can't afford to shoot much as it is, and very rarely shoot a long gun from the support side. When I do I'm a duck out of water. I'm glad this was brought up, because I should make an attempt to put more time in it, even if it's just dry fire to get used to the feel of the weapon being on that side.

[Complication]

For me, even though I do shoot lefty when I can, am much better off trying to hit a target with my right side.

Oh, compared to righty, I'm awful at left-hand shooting, especially when I'm worried about leaning out and all that fun stuff.

But you're either
A) shooting at somewhat short ranges in which case you just need to be "combat effective" in your accuracy (hardly a strain for anyone at short ranges).
B) shooting at longer ranges where you need to be much more accurate (in which case exposure is less important but also, you can shoot lefty and just take more time)
C) you're not shooting, but rather clearing around a corner in which case, less exposure means you are less likely to be detected, give your target less time to see your support arm coming around the corner (same reason you round corners with pistols in retention, not at full extension), and can get back behind cover if you get shot at.

And accuracy training isn't expensive, if you think about it.
If you're bad enough at support-side that you're better off throwing half your body around a corner to shoot strong-side, then 50 rounds in a training session should be A LOT. If you're so awful at it, you should be going slow instead of wasting time, bullets, and money by going too fast for yourself.
If you're good enough at support-side shooting that you can burn through 50 rounds in an training session shooting support-side and not be wasting ammo, then congratulations, I guarantee you that you're good enough at support-side that exposing your body to shoot strong-side is a bad idea.

You're either bad enough that it's cheap to train or good enough that you don't need to worry about having to shoot strong-side on a support-side lean.

I mean, you've got to be VERY bad at support-side to throw your big fat melon around a corner. So if your "honest assessment" of your skills shows you such a glaring deficit, then that's what your should FOCUS on training.

If you go to the range and just shoot what you're good at, at speeds you're good at, at ranges you're good at, then you're throwing money and time away.

I'm not saying "go out there and practice support-side shooting on support-side leans and nothing else." But if you're going out there and practicing shooting from behind cover and you're so confident in your strong-side abilities, then cut back on that practice and go out there until you're at least combat-effective with your support-side.

[Complication]

Also, if you get shot or stabbed in your strong-side, are grabbing/holding your kid with your strong-side, or any other the other myriad scenarios where your strong-side can't pull the trigger and/or support the gun, then you're absolutely ****ed if you don't train support-side shooting enough to hit the broad side of a barn.

I mean, to keep things simple, that alone should answer the question of "Should I get good with support-side shooting?"

[scjbash]

If you go to the range and just shoot what you're good at, at speeds you're good at, at ranges you're good at, then you're throwing money and time away.

I'm not saying "go out there and practice support-side shooting on support-side leans and nothing else." But if you're going out there and practicing shooting from behind cover and you're so confident in your strong-side abilities, then cut back on that practice and go out there until you're at least combat-effective with your support-side.

Totally agree about throwing away money if you're only doing what you are already good at.

What I meant about an honest assessment was knowing if you are even truly good and confident with at least your strong side. If there is room for a lot of improvement before someone is even combat effective strong side, then I think that's where their focus should be. If like you said, someone is already gtg there, then it's definitely time to step out of their comfort zone. I just know that I see people at the range shooting a thousand and one different drills, and not being worth a damn at any of them. They forever stay terrible at everything instead of at least getting decent at something. A person has to walk before they can run is what I'm really getting at, so they shouldn't get ahead of themselves.

ETA: Also agree that everyone should have the goal of getting good with their support side. Just saying people have to balance priorities with limited available time.