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Thread: Does anybody even still use carbine length rails anymore?

  1. #41
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    These discussions always get interesting. After re-reading the attached article by Pat Rogers, I'm still quite comfortable with my 7" rail on a carbine length gas system. I am still satisfied with a vertical grip closer to the barrel nut than the front sight, in the configuration I learned with. I have, though, made the concession to use a stubby grip with my support thumb on the side/top of the rail. I like these quotes from the article, and I see it happen quite frequently;

    We are all prisoners
    of our frame of reference, and that is
    as it should be—with some exceptions
    .......................... AND

    The problems arise when proponents
    of one vocation, discipline or game confuse
    their wants and needs with another.
    They become vociferous in their opposition
    to what someone else uses, basing
    their noise on nothing more than the fact
    that it doesn’t suit their particular needs.
    In short, they are afflicted with a form
    of weapon myopia, and the less they can
    see, the more they bang their drum.


    I tried the AFG and quickly realized it's not for me. Sold it easily whenthey were still hard to get.

    Thanks to Pat Rogers for reminding me it's OK to be me, even with my rifles.

    Here is the article:

    Search
    For The
    Perfect
    Carbine
    » By PATRICK A. ROGERS
    A recurring question, hotly debated
    in the errornet forums and
    gun stores everywhere, is what
    constitutes a “perfect” carbine.

    EYE OF THE
    BEHOLDER
    Marine Corps Standard Infantry rifle is M16A4.
    It is equipped with Trijicon RCO 4x telescope,
    KAC rail and vertical foregrip, SureFire MU
    white light and AN/PEQ-2A IR illuminator and
    laser aiming sight. A4 is too long for much of
    what the warrior needs to do. MOUT and CQB
    are possible, but length makes it less than
    optimal. RCO is an excellent telescope, but its
    use indoors in low light makes it less useful
    than an M4 or MK18 with red dot sight.
    SWATMAG.COM S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 53
    Opinions fluctuate widely according
    to peer pressure. One
    forum (populated by those with
    little practical experience) believes that
    only a bare bones circa 1963 gun is acceptable.
    Another forum (populated by
    a few with real experience) attempts to
    hold in check a population that wants everything
    on their carbines—especially if
    the gear is new, and no matter that they
    have neither an idea how nor the training
    to use it.
    Located in the center are those who
    may actually use their carbines, be they
    military, police, private citizens or competitive
    shooters.
    There is in fact no middle ground on
    this, nor should there be! We are all prisoners
    of our frame of reference, and that is
    as it should be—with some exceptions.
    Different jobs, vocations, competitive
    disciplines and hobbies require different
    hardware. Examples of this are that
    an Infantryman requires a certain type
    of weapon and sighting equipment. A
    member of a Special Operations team
    doing a Direct Action hit in search of a
    High Value Target may need something
    else entirely.
    A cop on patrol might have a carbine
    in his car, but a SWAT cop in the same
    department might have his carbine configured
    differently.
    A collector may want a representation
    of a period piece, as issued, and specific
    to a particular time.
    Competitors run the gamut from High
    Power Service Rifle shooters to 3-Gun
    shooters. In the case of the former, he
    will have what looks something like an
    M16A2, but with highly modified sights,
    a free float tube under the handguards,
    a 4.5-pound trigger and sufficient lead
    weight added to bring the rifle up to 13-
    14 pounds. The sling could be a leather
    Turner M1907 type, and the barrel a
    stainless steel behemoth.
    The latter might have a much lighter
    trigger, two optical sights, a muzzle
    brake that does its job well (at the expense
    of increased muzzle blast), free
    float tube and other game-unique additions.
    Probably the majority of ARs in the
    civilian world—with the exception of
    some competitive shooters—are not regularly
    used. They may be brought to the
    range occasionally, cleaned and admired
    often (and maybe too much of each), but
    with rare exceptions most are not rode
    hard and put away wet.
    In these cases what the carbine is
    (make, model) and what is on their
    carbine could be the result of multiple
    inputs, possibly including cable and
    broadcast news reports, magazine articles,
    Internet communication, personal
    preference, disposable income, and so on.
    Everyone will have valid concerns
    and desires when it comes to adding
    equipment to or modifying their guns.
    The problems arise when proponents
    of one vocation, discipline or game confuse
    their wants and needs with another.
    They become vociferous in their opposition
    to what someone else uses, basing
    their noise on nothing more than the fact
    that it doesn’t suit their particular needs.
    In short, they are afflicted with a form
    of weapon myopia, and the less they can
    see, the more they bang their drum.
    Even within sub groups there is dissension,
    with some wanting simple
    and others more capable guns. For example,
    many patrol officers are issued
    fairly stock ARs. The rationale can be
    that police administrators may not want
    anything unless the lowest common
    denominator can safely operate it. (In
    the late 1980s, the Master Instructor at
    NYPD stated that he was against the issue
    of semi-auto pistols to cops because
    “they are too stupid to operate them.”)
    In other cases, it may be cash driven. In
    some cases the decision may be based on
    knowledge of the system, common sense
    and good people in charge.
    A good case in point is the Arcadia,
    California, PD. In 1987 they added 9mm
    carbines to go with the shotguns in their
    cars. Though some recognized the gross
    limitations of the 9x19 in a long gun
    package, others believed it was the best
    compromise available at the time.
    Sgt Dean Caputo took a hard look at
    newly acquired empirical data and, after
    lengthy research, in 1996 the Arcadia PD
    chose and fielded the Colt Commando
    with an 11.5-inch barrel (this was prior
    to the North Hollywood incident). Every
    unit in Arcadia PD—marked, unmarked
    and even motorcycles—has the Colt
    Commando.
    Dean had to overcome a number of
    issues regarding what and how the carbine
    going to be used. The Commando
    was not individually issued, rather it
    went with the unit. All of the carbines
    were zeroed by one cop, and then placed
    in the vehicles. Dean also wanted the
    carbines to be carried up front, and short
    enough so that the driver could unlock
    the mount, sling the gun and chamber a
    round while inside the car. Unlike other
    agencies, which bowed to political correctness
    and the demands of radical
    community activists to keep the long
    guns in the trunk, he wanted the cop to
    be able to exit the unit with the carbine
    ready for action.
    Keeping the gun up front meant that
    optical sights were contraindicated.
    None of the mounts could take optics, so
    Dean stayed with iron sights—a compromise
    based on solid input. An additional
    issue was that, as the guns were not
    individually issued, it would be tough
    to hope that every cop would have the
    same high level of expertise and devotion
    to care.
    As the gun stayed with the unit, the
    Commandos had to be ambidextrous.
    The cops in the car could both be right
    handed, both left handed or there could
    Short-barreled 416 with SureFire M900 light—easily the most capable of the
    weapon-mounted white lights. Trijicon Mini ACOG is mounted on top. In this case,
    Larue Mount replaced OEM mount—a wise choice. Single point sling is attached
    to TangoDown PR-4 mount—another good choice. This mount is more expensive
    than a receiver plate, but permits ambidextrous as well as central mounting
    option. And you don’t have to take gun apart to fit it.
    54 S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 SWATMAG.COM
    be one of each. Slings and operational
    controls needed to be accessible to all.
    Caputo had to make some compromises
    based on a multitude of internal
    and external inputs, but his patrol rifle
    program has been highly successful.
    The Emergency Service Unit of NYPD
    went to Ruger Mini 14s in the 1970s for
    the sole reason that they “didn’t look as
    militaristic” as M16s. The Minis were
    Truck guns—that is, they were issued
    out to the Emergency Service Squad, not
    individuals.
    It wasn’t until the murderous attack
    on the World Trade Center that ESU purchased
    a 5.56 carbine for all members—in
    this case the Colt model R0979 M4 type
    Carbine with an Aimpoint sight. The
    times changed and so did requirements,
    and the sight of cops armed with M4s
    and dressed out in tac vests and helmets
    wasn’t as offensive to the masses as the
    results of the purveyors of a twisted philosophy
    killing thousands of Americans
    in an American city.
    An oft-repeated refrain is that “they”
    (alternate, “them”) took a neat 5.5 pound
    carbine and turned it into a heavyweight
    multipurpose whatever, loaded down
    with everything known to man—specifically
    “tactical doo-dads” (whatever a
    doo-dad is). Some will moan about optics
    and lust for guns that possess only
    “good ole’ iron sights” (whatever “good
    ole’ ” means).
    Like most myths, it has some basis in
    fact. Carrying a gun from your trunk to
    a covered bench rest on a public range
    requires little strength. Carrying that
    same firestick for three or four days over
    terrain where the contour lines blur is
    something else again. Weight is an issue
    for sure.
    However, the end state of carrying
    a carbine—penetrating bad guys with
    projectiles—may mean that you do need
    to offset weight for capability. Are you
    absolutely sure that you’ll only have
    to engage during daylight? Well then,
    those lightweight “good ole” iron sights
    may just do you right. But if you have to
    use it at night, or in dim light, or indoors
    at any time, or if your eyes are getting
    weaker, or you have to put rounds into
    multiple opponents at close range, then
    you may need an optical sight, IR laser
    aiming sight/IR illuminator or visible
    laser aiming sight
    If you want to win, that is. If you aspire
    to be first loser, love mediocrity, or
    don’t want to have an edge, go light—
    real light. It can make it a lot easier for
    others to police up your lifeless body
    and inefficient equipment after all is said
    and done.
    Me, I’ll go weapon capable.
    Is the primary use of your carbine
    defense of your domicile/ family? If so,
    have you ever considered when the burglaries
    that turn into robberies, assaults,
    sexual assaults or homicides most often
    occur?
    You guessed it—nighttime. That’s
    probably why the law considers nighttime
    burglaries to be more heinous
    crimes, and why the law in many jurisdictions
    permits greater latitude in the
    use of Deadly Physical Force in such
    cases.
    The overwhelming majority of gun
    owners have received no training. And
    of those who have, fewer still have
    trained at night. Without a white light,
    you cannot adequately perform that
    oh-so-important first step in the Target
    Engagement Process—acquisition. And
    if you do, the second and third parts—
    identification and engagement—will be
    likewise extremely difficult to perform.
    It is your choice, and what you choose
    may make no difference at all—or it may
    mean the forfeiture of your life or those
    of your loved ones..
    Consider some “perfect” carbines…
    When I had some property in the high
    desert, I would go for a daily five miler.
    Because cell service was minimal to nonexistent,
    the local sheriff’s office was undermanned
    and covered an area larger
    than many states, and the desert is not
    a particularly hospitable place anyway, I
    carried a gun when doing cardio.
    Understand that this wasn’t necessarily
    for protection against bipeds—though
    that was a distant possibility—but rather
    against critters. Mountain lions, coyotes
    and other predators were there way before
    man, and I understand completely
    PERFECT CARBINE
    Caveat Emptor rings as true
    today as it did when Latin was
    a viable language. Local SWAT
    Team purchased uppers as
    well as two complete guns
    from manufacturer known for
    competition guns, not fighting
    guns. Though guns were spec’d
    for 5.56 chambers (and barrels
    were so marked), chambers
    were in fact .223. In addition
    to mismarked chambers,
    extractor spring was the
    older type and the insert was
    blue, rather than the correct
    enhanced carbine extractor
    spring with black insert. Here,
    Sheriff Ken Campbell uses Ned
    Christensen’s Chamber Reamer
    to bring guns up to spec.
    SWATMAG.COM S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 55
    that the food chain exists. I don’t want to
    be on the lower end of it.
    To that end I had an older Colt Carbine—
    slab sided, standard barrel (what some
    are calling a “skinny” or “pencil” barrel,
    their minds having been altered by advertising
    hype into believing that heavy barrels
    are standard) and a two-point sling.
    The only alterations were an XS golf ball
    front sight and an A2 aperture rear. I have
    no use for the small aperture for anything
    but Highpower competition. Any shots I
    needed to take were up close (under 50m)
    and rapid target acquisition was more
    important than theoretical polka dot accuracy.
    I don’t do outdoor cardio at night,
    so a weapon mounted white light was a
    non-issue, and I didn’t need an optical
    sight for low light engagement. Weight
    was the issue here—a 5.5-pound rifle can
    get very heavy after a few miles.
    For that specific purpose—daytime
    only, short-range engagement—that particular
    carbine was optimal for me, and
    for that use.
    This is not a carbine that I would list
    as first choice for combat, be it Infantry
    engagement or Direct Action. When the
    M16 family first saw combat, night vision
    was relatively new technology, and
    nighttime firefights were noisy affairs
    where hits were more the result of luck
    than skill. That has changed, and will
    continue to change, as technology meets
    the emerging threats.
    Shift forward a little bit here. Within
    the confines of my house I keep a carbine
    handy. Where I reside, crime is minimal,
    but not unknown, and as you can’t make
    an appointment to have an emergency, I’ll
    opt for being prepared. Common crime
    may not be the only issue here, though.
    Terrorism is no longer theoretical, and
    regional events such as Katrina and Rita
    are cyclic—we will see devastation from
    their likes again. The attack on the U.S.
    by Islamo Fascists and Katrina were different
    on many levels, but both were eradefining
    events.
    Future events may be more or less destructive,
    depending on who is hurling
    the arrows. And whether the event is regional
    or national, if you are in the middle
    of it, the world as you know it will change
    in a very short period of time—and your
    world may never be the same again.
    continued on page 86
    PERFECT CARBINE
    86 S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 SWATMAG.COM
    My in-house carbine has an Aimpoint
    M3 mounted as well as a SureFire
    M900 light (both in Larue mounts). The
    Aimpoint has an obscenely capable battery
    life—I never shut it off. It remains
    on medium power, and therefore good
    to go. The SureFire M900 is the most capable
    of the weapon-mounted lights out
    there, and while heavy and expensive,
    the tradeoff is well worth it.
    If I need to defend my life or that of
    a third person under extreme circumstances,
    I want something that is sufficient
    to the task—and that specific gun
    is up to the task.
    Before my eyes deteriorated (aging
    sucks, but beats the alternative) I
    shot Highpower Service Rifle. I went
    Distinguished with an M14, but the supremacy
    of the M16 brought me around
    to that platform in the late 1990s. It had
    1/4 MOA sights, a tiny rear aperture,
    lead in the buttstock and lead sleeves
    around the handguard. The barrel was
    a very heavy, match grade 1:8 twist that
    shot like the proverbial house on fire. It
    had a trigger you would die for in service
    rifle competition—but it might be a
    trigger that you would die because of in
    a gunfight. If you are shooting Service
    Rifle, this is a solid performing gun. For
    3-Gun competition, it is useless, and for
    gunfighting it is a detriment.
    Individuals seeking to buy a carbine
    (or most any other gun) will seek advice
    from others. Some will go to local gun
    stores, where the advice may be excellent
    or may be based on nothing more
    than what that dealer stocks and has
    available. Others will go on the errornet,
    where a great many people will—based
    on their frame of reference of owning
    one article—sing its praises or roll it under
    the bus. Caveat Emptor rings loud
    here, and the buyer must be cautious.
    One—or even 100—may not be a good
    statistical sample. Performance over
    the long haul by a large number of like
    weapons will give you a better idea as to
    overall usefulness.
    That data is not easily forthcoming.
    Periodicals do not have the budget to do
    the sophisticated testing necessary, and
    the large volume of public sales that requires
    such testing does not exist (consider
    baby seats, refrigerators and the
    like).
    Every maker is capable of turning
    out a poor article. The Quality Control/
    Quality Assurance procedures set in
    place will determine the volume of
    poor guns. Understand that those selling
    to the government must perform
    to a standard, and that inspectors can
    (and do) enforce those standards. Also
    understand that while Low Bidder was
    a common way for agencies to choose
    an item, Best Value is now a standard
    for those smart enough to understand
    the implications. And best value means
    exactly that—a higher initial price that
    is offset by higher standards for quality.
    Lower cost is often a clue that short cuts
    are being implemented. These may be
    more efficient manufacturing or something
    more insidious, and the only way
    you may ever find out is when your
    bolt cracks, your gas carrier keys aren’t
    staked, the 5.56 chamber you spec’d is
    actually a .223 “match” chamber or the
    gun flat doesn’t run. And the military/
    LE sales guy is on vacation and can’t be
    bothered to take care of the problems
    that his crappy little company foisted
    upon your team.
    Every maker is also capable of turning
    out good guns, but some seem to take
    shortcuts and hedge on the assumption
    that most gun buyers shoot very little—
    if at all.
    I once had the opportunity to watch
    two European gun writers show up for
    a carbine class where they were to use a
    particular maker’s guns.
    The guns were there all right, but neither
    one worked at all. No amount of
    tweaking could get them functioning.
    What made it even worse is that when
    the school called the factory to get two
    new guns, the response was that there
    were no more guns available.
    Here the factory knew what these
    guns were for, but apparently completely
    misunderstood (or were unconcerned)
    about what the ramifications of poor QC
    and worse customer service would be.
    I see examples of both good and less
    good guns at every class. Over the years
    it has led me to understand that there
    are some guns that are more—and less—
    likely to work as advertised. My purchasing
    decisions and recommendations
    are based on that frame of reference going
    back three decades.
    The search for the “perfect” carbine
    may be no more attainable than the
    search for the Holy Grail, and Monty
    Python’s version may be as viable as
    Dan Brown’s.
    There is no “perfect” carbine. There is
    no “ultimate” carbine. The carbine—like
    any other firearm—is only a tool, and
    you have to decide what it is that makes
    a particular tool best for your particular
    mission requirements.
    Make your decisions based on reality,
    and not on what the screen “hero” uses
    to slay hordes of zombies. If you see
    something that you don’t like on another’s
    gun, keep your pie hole in check and
    avoid the keypad until you have a clear
    understanding as to what it is and why
    it is needed. Better to keep your mouth
    shut and let people think you are a fool
    than open it and confirm everyone’s suspicions.
    If you carry/use a firearm for real, cultivate
    the proper mindset and seek out
    the best training that you can. Make sure
    that sustainment training is part of your
    life. That will be the only way to maximize
    your equipment and ensure that
    you win the fight.
    It is—and always has been—the singer,
    not the song. §
    [Pat Rogers is a retired Chief Warrant
    Officer of Marines and a retired NYPD
    Sergeant. He is the owner of E.A.G. Inc.,
    which provides services to various governmental
    organizations. He can be reached at
    eag@10-8consulting.com]
    Last edited by DWood; 07-18-10 at 11:54.

  2. #42
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    I resisted rails until just recently when I put a 7" one on a new carbine length gas build. I'm glad I did it because it does make for easier and more versatile accessory mounting (light, handstop, sling point in my case) but I don't think I'd ever build another 7" railed gun - it's awfully cramped.
    Ken in Illinois

  3. #43
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    Ironically my SBR has more railspace, but the 16" carbine has room enough for the things I need: a VFG and light.

    Using much smaller lights now, than when this was taken.


  4. #44
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    Yeah man! I have the same Troy DI rail. It works great for me. Troy if you're listening change he sling attachments so they have the rotational limiter. They are priced right and attach with a screw driver. There coustomer service is has been awesome each toilet I've called.

    You've got a solid set up.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  5. #45
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    I just set up my N4 light w/ a dd omega7.0,magpul RVG and KAC rail covers. Love it!

  6. #46
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    My first and only AR is a 14.5" with a carbine gas system. I picked it up early last year and mounted a LaRue 7" rail on it. I have run it quite alot but not nearly as hard as alot of people do their guns. I also have a Surefire 6P mounted in a LaRue offset light mount that is mounted on the 3 o'clock rail. I don't bother running a VFG and really like how the gun handles.

    That being said I believe that if I would get another upper that it would be a mid length with either a 14.5" or 16" barrel with a longer rail. Of course it would be setup more for longer range work with scope and bipod.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    Yeah man! I have the same Troy DI rail. It works great for me. Troy if you're listening change he sling attachments so they have the rotational limiter. They are priced right and attach with a screw driver. There coustomer service is has been awesome each toilet I've called.

    You've got a solid set up.


    I do agree the Troy DI rail works great and at a great price point too. Agree on the swivel socket comment. Used to have that myself until I decided to experiment with getting my hand further out front.

    My observation is that it will be really hard to fill even a short carbine length rail with with whatever you decide to mount on your rifle. For most everyone it will have more rail than you can use. But it can be hard to position your accessories in an optimal way with a carbine-length rail. Couple that with the advantage of better muzzle control via optimal hand positioning further out that a carbine rail cannot provide (with longer barrels) and the advantage of a longer rail can be seen clearly.

    OTOH, if you can mount whatever you need properly for you on a short rail, and you can place your support hand properly for you on that same rail, it is still a much viable set up to have.

    JMHO.

  8. #48
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    For me the 7" carbine set up it entirely too short of a platform to work off of. I have been running a 12" LT or DD rail for 4-5 years. I run them because they allow me to shoot better.

    Go pick up a brush gun or a shotgun that fits you and you can run well enough that it is into the see/shoot level of comfort. Measure the distance between your master hand and your support hand and then measure from your nose to your support hand. Unless you are very short of arm or narrow of chest, those measurements will show a distance that is impossible to get on a 7" carbine.

    That is why I started my search for the longer forearms. If my body finds a "grip", for want of a better term, on gun that gives me a lot of possible ones as the long forearms of a rifle does. Why would I not try and replicate that "grip" on an AR?

  9. #49
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    Talking

    Three LMT carbines. 1 16inch DD 7inch Omega
    1 16inch factory handgaurd
    1 10.5inch 7 inch Larue

    Body type makes a big difference. If you are a smaller guy it is not as big an issue. If you are built like a wookie I can see a problem.
    Last edited by 1911pro; 07-19-10 at 10:40.
    "No you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existance and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil." - John Galt

  10. #50
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    More 'rail' (I used the parenthises as more and more rails are not fully railed but FF tubes with rail segments) gives more hand position, and the further out front you can put your hand the more control you have on the gun, the more room for accessories, and the longer area you can rest the weapon without it being on the barrel.

    Back when we had rifles, we knew a lot of things, with the carbines and advent of the RIS and RAS, we had accessories with little room.

    One unit knew this and had Mr. Knight make the MRE, and now, others are re-learning and going back to what should be.

    I would not buy a new gun with a carbine length rail, however you don't need to get rid of it, for while not optimal for most uses, it is not useless.
    Kevin S. Boland
    Manager, Federal Sales
    FN America, LLC
    Office: 703.288.3500 x181 | Mobile: 407-451-4544 | Fax: 703.288.4505
    www.fnhusa.com

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