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Thread: Customer Service, AR's and You

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    The thread is a about coustomer service. Not quality control.
    I beg to differ as they go hand in hand. You will need little of the first if you can stay on top of the latter.


    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I'm fairly certain usmcvet was referring the Colt making the large pivot pin uppers on purpose to not fit mil-spec lowers.

    Ok, I get it. He is correct, but a little history for those that weren't around. IIRC, the first AR15 came out in 1966, and as a concession to the ATF, Colt did a few things to differentiate between an M16 and an AR15 to include the large front pivot pin, semi bolt carrier, no mag release fence. Noticeable differences that by today's standard really don't amount to much relative to concessions. Understand though, that was 44 years ago when all the other companies mentioned here were not even a forethought, nothing. How many here were even around 44 years ago?

    Remember the "G" series FAL imported by Browning in the early 60's? A machine gun receiver granted an 'amnesty' in the serial # range. How about the Hk 41 in the early to mid 60's? Same deal. Colt could not get away with marketing a domestically produced weapon that could be construed a 'machine gun' receiever - per se. ATF was not gonna get caught with their pants down on this one, the AR15.





    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    It is part of why I will not buy Colt. I woukd say it was more a marketing choice than a customer service decision.They chose to make products to appease the gun grabbers. They made large pin uppers and lowers, removed bayonet lugs, removed the fence from around the mag release and left a bunch of material in the lowers and changed pin sizes all in an attempt to make the gun grabbers happy. It did not work. So it is a personal thing win me. I won't buy the Pony. If some one asks me what to buy at the local gun shop I suggest a Colt or S&W because they are the two best guns be carries. If you ask me what I like it is LMT of BCM.

    All of the Colt guns I see are still marked Law Enforcement/Government Use Only. That irritates me.

    Colt makes great stuff. They just lost me as a customers because of what they've done to the consumer in the past.
    I think your vitriol directed towards Colt is misguided. Remember, Colt is two companies, and under the Clinton administration and the AWB, some were trying to keep their doors open. Most if not all of the companies you mention were also not even a thought during that time either.

    It is easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks, but many don't have a clue to what actually is going on, particularly in each individual business. In Colt’s case, I will cede that the change in ownership and/or leadership on more than one occasion did not bode well for civilian wants, but it is what it is. They sure weren’t Bill Ruger. Also remember, suppling M16's to the DoD have always taken precedence over anything in the civilian market and always will. Period. None of us are at the top of the list in getting their wants met by Colt. If we were, some of the other companies mentioned here may not even be viable. Just a thought.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 10-10-10 at 12:01.

  2. #82
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    I do buy Winchester ammo. I have Ranger SXT ammo and Ranger slugs in my duty and personal guns.

    The Black Talon issue was a smart move by them and the new ammo is just as effective. They toned down their marketing changed the color of their ammo and the stuff is pretty much the same but the anti gunners went away. What Winchester did had no negative effect on their ammo. Colt changed their guns so they would not work with other guns with out special parts.

    These are not the Droids you're looking for worked for Winchester. It did not work for Colt. I am openly saying I will not spend my money on a Colt. I sold that Colt A2 for $400 a few months before the ban because I needed to fix my car. I wish I sold it a few months later I could have sold it for $1,200 and bought a new/used car.

    I know they make good stuff and I tell people that. It is how I choose to spend my money. Spend yours how you choose. It is just a preference I also like Chevy trucks.

    Back on topic. In my experience Wincester also has awesome customer service. They've come up to little VT a few times and done demo testing and shooting with us.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    I do buy Winchester ammo. I have Ranger SXT ammo and Ranger slugs in my duty and personal guns.

    The Black Talon issue was a smart move by them and the new ammo is just as effective. They toned down their marketing changed the color of their ammo and the stuff is pretty much the same but the anti gunners went away. What Winchester did had no negative effect on their ammo. Colt changed their guns so they would not work with other guns with out special parts.

    These are not the Droids you're looking for worked for Winchester. It did not work for Colt. I am openly saying I will not spend my money on a Colt. I sold that Colt A2 for $400 a few months before the ban because I needed to fix my car. I wish I sold it a few months later I could have sold it for $1,200 and bought a new/used car.

    I know they make good stuff and I tell people that. It is how I choose to spend my money. Spend yours how you choose. It is just a preference I also like Chevy trucks.

    Back on topic. In my experience Wincester also has awesome customer service. They've come up to little VT a few times and done demo testing and shooting with us.
    So it bugs you that Colts are marked LE/Mil - but not caring who buys them - but you don't mind Winchester actively prohibiting its distributors from selling its best ammo to people who aren't in LE?

  4. #84
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    87GN

    I did not know Winchester ammo had an issue with their ammo and civilians. In the shop I buy most of my ammo at the SXT is on the shelf along with everything else any one can buy it. I know if I buy a box for myself the only difference I see is in price, I pay FET and State Sales tax and the PD does not. I know TAP used to do the same thing with their ammo, I am not sure if they still do. I know Hornady has gone so far as to buy ammo online that was supposed to be LE only and shut off the folks selling it.

    Coleslaw

    I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 in either late ’96 or early ’97. It was my second AR and I loved it. I bought the gun on department letterhead and used that gun until a year ago when I sold it. I never liked the LE/Mil only markings. It left a bad AWB taste in my mouth.

    COLT MAKES AWESOME GUNS. I just do not want to buy one. I carried one in the Corps and we have a few at work. I have trusted my life to them in the past and do today. Colt is good to go, just not for me.

    I made the comment about Colt big hole uppers because you seemed like a no it all and were slamming BCM while throwing around the big dollar named guns and were befuddled by how an upper and lower would not mate up. I thought it was ironic. You allude to your M16’s, LWRC’s, KAC, FN, H&R and GM sweet high dollar guns/uppers. Cool you have some nice guns. I am happy for you.

    You go on to use the words allegedly, professional and reputable. Your post drips with snobbery. Just because it does not cost $2,000 to $20,000 does not mean it is not a great gun.

    When you said everything from a 45 year old Colt upper to one made last week would always fit mil spec lowers with no problem. I called foul. It is clearly not true. Colt built lots of guns/uppers with the intention of them not fitting mil spec guns/uppers.

    Any mil spec lower/upper will fit unless there is a problem. The OP had an issue and BCM took care of it immediately. That is the point. EVERY company has issues it is what they do when they surface that is important and the point of this thread. If we want to have a thread about what we like or dislike about a brand let’s start one up.

    I wish I was old enough to buy machineguns when they were priced right. I am 38 so I was about 14 when the window started closing on the affordable machineguns. I have two SBR’s that is as close as I will come to a machine. One is an LMT one is a BCM my third AR is a BLT, Bravo Upper and LMT lower.

    You said you were not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers and asked if this was an aftermarket thing implying BCM is aftermarket?

    Again Colt makes awesome guns. So does BCM and LMT. I can tell you I have personal experience with all three and experience with the customer service of BCM & LMT. I’ve never had an issue with my BCM guns, I did with LMT. LMT took care of me and they cemented our relationship. I've also had a problem with a few Marlin guns I've owned and they took care of them right away for free. They have a customer for life too.
    Last edited by usmcvet; 10-10-10 at 13:46. Reason: tried to respond to 87GN ref ammo Coleslaw for the rest
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  5. #85
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    Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

  6. #86
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    Fixed it.

    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  7. #87
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    I'm gonna try to get back on topic here with my $.02....Every manufacturer CANNOT put out a 100% perfect product. Logistically, it's impossible. Through the QA/QC dep'ts, some companies shine more than others by letting fewer out-of-spec products through. Inevitably, some products make it out to the market with some imperfections. The difference then becomes what that company does to right any wrongs. Once again, some companies shine more than others in this area, which is where this topic started.
    It's not about Colt using proprietary parts. The end-user makes the decision on whether to make a purchase such as this or not. Personally, I chose to put my stock in BCM, because you hear little to no bad stories about CS. I am also getting first-hand info on great CS with Daniel Defense, as well. I guess, in the end, different customers have different priorities, but CS is very high on my list...


    --Hitman--
    Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
    Zulu Tango Foxtrot

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post

    Coleslaw

    I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 in either late ’96 or early ’97. It was my second AR and I loved it. I bought the gun on department letterhead and used that gun until a year ago when I sold it. I never liked the LE/Mil only markings. It left a bad AWB taste in my mouth.

    COLT MAKES AWESOME GUNS. I just do not want to buy one. I carried one in the Corps and we have a few at work. I have trusted my life to them in the past and do today. Colt is good to go, just not for me.

    I made the comment about Colt big hole uppers because you seemed like a no it all and were slamming BCM while throwing around the big dollar named guns and were befuddled by how an upper and lower would not mate up. I thought it was ironic. You allude to your M16’s, LWRC’s, KAC, FN, H&R and GM sweet high dollar guns/uppers. Cool you have some nice guns. I am happy for you.
    To be honest, Colt large hole uppers are not truly 'mil spec' - that term again. They do not fit on an M16 receiver. That being said, I have never had a Colt AR15 big hole upper that did not fit on a Colt big hole lower.

    To be clear, I was not patting myself on the back mentioning some of those firearms. Just making a statement that Colt military uppers always fit on Colt military lowers as well as the other makers and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    You go on to use the words allegedly, professional and reputable. Your post drips with snobbery. Just because it does not cost $2,000 to $20,000 does not mean it is not a great gun.
    That was not my intention. Many of the companies you and I both mentioned offer fine products. I just couldn't understand how a CNC machined upper doesn't fit on a CNC machined lower with all things being equal. Doesn't it seem odd? The only reasons could come up with are worn cutting tools or an incorrect program.

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    When you said everything from a 45 year old Colt upper to one made last week would always fit mil spec lowers with no problem. I called foul. It is clearly not true. Colt built lots of guns/uppers with the intention of them not fitting mil spec guns/uppers.
    I thought I made it clear, but I suppose I didn't. I was referring to M16 uppers/lowers. I think it is evident and as I explained the reasons for the changes to the original AR15 series from Colt.

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    Any mil spec lower/upper will fit unless there is a problem. The OP had an issue and BCM took care of it immediately. That is the point. EVERY company has issues it is what they do when they surface that is important and the point of this thread. If we want to have a thread about what we like or dislike about a brand let’s start one up.
    That was exactly my question, what was the problem and it was answered. I am still curious how the rear take down pin hole was off on the upper, if a reason was given.

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    I wish I was old enough to buy machineguns when they were priced right. I am 38 so I was about 14 when the window started closing on the affordable machineguns. I have two SBR’s that is as close as I will come to a machine. One is an LMT one is a BCM my third AR is a BLT, Bravo Upper and LMT lower.
    You are old enough now, and it is a good time to buy. Prices are pretty flat and I occasionally see some incremental drops. Priced right is relative, so I urge anyone if they can put it together to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcvet View Post
    You said you were not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers and asked if this was an aftermarket thing implying BCM is aftermarket?

    Again Colt makes awesome guns. So does BCM and LMT. I can tell you I have personal experience with all three and experience with the customer service of BCM & LMT. I’ve never had an issue with my BCM guns, I did with LMT. LMT took care of me and they cemented our relationship. I've also had a problem with a few Marlin guns I've owned and they took care of them right away for free. They have a customer for life too.
    It may be my mistake, but I generally look at arms of this type made for civilian consumption as aftermarket, and that is including the stuff I own too. So, this isn’t directed as a slight at anyone or any company. Perhaps ‘aftermarket’ is the incorrect term, I don’t know. That is not to say that some of these manufacturers stuff isn’t as good or better than the DoD currently purchases, only that they haven’t. I am not talking small batches for testing/trials or small unit or individiual purchase, etc.

    Should I glean from your statements regarding CS that you are not an Hk fan?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Should I glean from your statements regarding CS that you are not an Hk fan?
    Well, at least from what I have seen, if you desire CS, being an HK fan can be pretty rough.

  10. #90
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    I have never owned an HK. I know some companies get so big they often loose track of how important CS is to the little guys. I have heard horror stories about HK too. I know Remington has a bad rap in my local gun shop. The owner had a sign printed up about it and it hangs behind the counter in his shop. I will try and remember to get a photo of it. The sign warns if you buy a Remington you are on your own for warranty problems because their CS is awful.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

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