Which S&B?

[OpDoc]

Looking for optimal glass for an SPR build. I was planning on the S&B 3-12x50 Military, but just learned about the 4-16x42 PMII Illuminated Gen 2XL. Looks like the smaller 42mm obj. might be a better "fit" for the 18" SPR. Mount is Larue Tactical SPR one-piece. Will be shooting 77s with max range about 400m. I'd appreciate any thoughts or experience.

[Rana]

I would take a look at the Compact Night Force NXS 2.5-10X w/ MILDOT reticle.

It is half the cost of an S&B and a perfect fit to an SPR build. (RE: designed w/ the SPR in mind)

Nothing against the S&B, their glass is top shelf.

The S&B short dot would serve well on a general purpose M4 style rifle and their Mil/Police scopes are better suited for tactical precision bolt action rifles IMO.

[shark31]

That is a whole lotta glass for shooting at 400m, have you looked at a TA33 w/ .308 BDC?

[cfrazier]

Have you thought of Leupold 3-9x36 mil-dot.

[Rana]

That is a whole lotta glass for shooting at 400m, have you looked at a TA33 w/ .308 BDC?

Ditto on the "whole lot of glass" statement (in reference to the S&B).

Personally not a huge ACOG fan. I think the eye relief blows on all of them and you really loose "SA" when focused with them. With that being said I am issued an ACOG on one of my work set ups as it is necessary for target ID purposes.


I really am settled on 2 types of non-iron sights for domestic use;

For an SPR the NF NXS 2.5x10 (pref:MilDot Reticle).

For a CQBR or standard M4 I think a Plane Jane Aimpoint M2 (pref: 4MOA reticule) is still a very good piece of gear for most realistic scenarios. And luckily I spend enough time on rifle ranges to judge distance fairly accurately. My M2 is zeroed at 50M/200M and IRONS at 300M.

The NF NXS is small and handy enough to reach out past 300M and you can keep a dope for distances well beyond 400M; with a true 18" SPR set up. Of course a good set of IRONS doped at 3 "hundy" should be standard on any M4 style platform.

I think both of these devices coupled with some "IRONS" are all anyone would need for any variety of domestic M4- be it an SBR, standard M4, or SPRish platform.

The S&B Short Dot has won much acclaim as of late; but I don't necessarily believe it fulfills a huge need. I would put it under the "nice piece of gear to have," category.

[shark31]

Ditto on the "whole lot of glass" statement (in reference to the S&B).

Personally not a huge ACOG fan. I think the eye relief blows on all of them and you really loose "SA" when focused with them. With that being said I am issued an ACOG on one of my work set ups as it is necessary for target ID purposes.

I agree, however the new TA33 has excellent eye relief of almost two inches. That all being said, I shoot 300m with just fixed irons and I'm quite happy with it. To me a scope belongs on a bolt gun.

[Derek_Connor]

Looking for optimal glass for an SPR build. I was planning on the S&B 3-12x50 Military, but just learned about the 4-16x42 PMII Illuminated Gen 2XL. Looks like the smaller 42mm obj. might be a better "fit" for the 18" SPR. Mount is Larue Tactical SPR one-piece. Will be shooting 77s with max range about 400m. I'd appreciate any thoughts or experience.

Will you be humping this rifle alot? of be on the ground/bench more?

[Zak Smith]

The 3-12 is shorter, which will help "fit" on an AR-15. But it's going to be BIG, and kind of dominate the size of the upper.

I recently wrote an article on fighting optics for the AR. Here's a relevant excerpt:

...
It's no surprise, then, that common themes in sighting systems arise. I'm going to break these down into three categories: Type I, Type II, and Type III.



Type I sights are non-magnified red-dot optics. They are optimized for zero to 100 yards, and are
most effective within the cartridge's point-blank distance, which is about 275 yards for 5.56. On
large targets such as full silhouettes, they can make hits out to about 350 yards, but from 400
yards and further, compensating for over three feet of bullet drop is problematic. Type I optics
are typically reduced-parallax or parallax-free red-dot sights with no magnification. The most
common Type I optics are the Aimpoint M2, M3, or M4, and the EOTech.


Type II sights are low-power magnified optics with reticle features providing aiming points for
distant targets. The Type II optic should not have external knobs to prevent loss of zero due to
the knobs being bumped. They are optimized for 75 to about 400 yards. Type II optics are generally either
fixed magnification in the three to four power range, or are variable power in the one to four
range. The most common Type II optic is the Trijicon ACOG, in either the 4x versions (TA31, TA01) or
the 3.5x version (TA11). The US Military realizes these capabilities in the Designated Marksman
Rifle (DMR) and Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDM-R).

Finally, Type III sighting systems have the capability to take the rifle to its ballistic limit and
to engage very small target at extended ranges. The 18-inch Mk12 Mod 1 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR)
uses such an optic, so it makes sense to call it an SPR optic. Military-issue 5.56 loads
fired from a 16-inch barrel go subsonic between 600 and 800 yards at sea level, and this defines the
longest possible engagement distance. Keep in mind that the terminal energy of 5.56 at this
distance is very low, however, the SPR has made kills at over 600 yards using 77-grain ammunition.
The other advantage these have over the Type II or DMR optic is the ability to see and engage very
small targets at intermediate and long distances. When fighting opponents who are partially behind
cover or wearing armor, the ability to ID targets and place a head shot several hundred yards away
can be key.

Unless you REALLY need the accuracy and reach of a Type III, the Type II / DMR optic makes a lot more sense. If shooting silhouettes, a TA11 ACOG can own anything within 500 yards from field positions.

Having shot a lot of LR with bolt guns, I wouldn't invest that much $$ into a 5.56 scope. It's just too poor of a LR cartridge to warrant it. A 3-9 M/RT with M2 or M3 knobs gets the job done, and is a better "fit" for the AR platform (though not ideal).

-z

[Face_N_The_Crowd]

The S&B 3-12 is really impressive

[Rana]

The Elcan Spectre DR is heading down the pipe as well. It may be a good multi purpose "AR" sight. Not really a true SPRish optic. Again for something like that, I am assuming a SUB MOA rifle, I would again go with the NF 2.5x10 compact NXS.