Still a role for the shotgun?

**KTR03** · 07-29-10, 10:42

Hello Everyone,

Was sitting around with some of my colleagues the other day and got onto this topic. We teach a patrol rifle/shotgun class, and the shotgun portion just keeps shrinking. One of my buddies asked "so what exactly does a shotgun do that a rifle can't do better, at longer range, with more ammo, less recoil...".

This got me thinking about the use of shotguns, why we train with them, and what role they play in the tool box. For the purposes of the converstion, lets stipulte that they are good for 'less lethal" and breaching. I'm more interested in them as a fighting tool.

Here is what I see as pros:
1) lethality - within its given range, buckshot is very effective. Slugs as well.
2) intimidation - the local knuckle heads are scared of shotguns. I understand that the folks in the sandbox have had similar experience. Most folks that get an 870 pointed at them comply pretty quickly.
3) Efficacy - while its crap to say "you don't even have to aim with a shotgun - just point it", they do offer a margin of error that pistols don't.

Cons:
1) recoil - tougher for smaller framed people
2) capacity - low capacity and hard to reload quickly
3) limited range - compared to other long guns
4) Over penetation - ever see a slug go through a trailor... they go on for ever...

So given the pros and cons and the finite training dollars and equipment dollars, what role does the venerable 12 gauge play in the tool box? This is how I come down: They are everywhere. Citizens have them in closets all over the country. The are in beat cars everywhere. They offer a temenedous short range punch and a deterrant value. We should train with them, know their limitations, and use them as appropriate. My good friend and colleague says " nothing a shotgun offers that an ar15 doesn't. ARs are more versatile, more accurate, easier to keep running, easier to train with, are suitable for nearly all body types... Shotguns should go the way of the 686 as a primary duty/fighting tool.

So what say you all. Genuinely interested in your opinions.

**streck** · 07-29-10, 11:01

Originally Posted by KTR03

3) Efficacy - while its crap to say "you don't even have to aim with a shotgun - just point it", they do offer a margin of error that pistols don't.

That's only true at longer ranges approaching 25 yards a shotgun with buckshot still has to be aimed. At what ranges do you teach to switch to slugs or change weapons?

Don't forget cost. Basic shotguns cost much less than basic ARs. The price difference between an AR and a shotty will get you a lot of practice ammo for the shotgun.

Pump shotguns need to be practiced with in a stress situation before being used as a defensive weapon. Too many people handle them just fine at the range but then short-cycle under stress inducing a FTF. That tendency has to be trained away.

I think shotguns have a definite role in the tool box but not at the expense of other tools. Nor should the incorporation of an AR replace the shotgun.

**DarwinsLilHelper** · 07-29-10, 11:14

Yet strangely enough. It's usually the same officers, who proclaim the shotgun as incredibly dangerous to non actors and a waste of departmental funds. Who tell us the dept must spend twice as much money per rifle on Full Auto AR's with the happy switch. Because officer safety somehow is more important than collateral damage when an Nifty looking AR is involved.

**NCPatrolAR** · 07-29-10, 11:24

Originally Posted by DarwinsLilHelper

Yet strangely enough. It's usually the same officers, who proclaim the shotgun as incredibly dangerous to non actors and a waste of departmental funds. Who tell us the dept must spend twice as much money per rifle on Full Auto AR's with the happy switch. Because officer safety somehow is more important than collateral damage when an Nifty looking AR is involved.

You need to head over to the following thread and answer IG's question

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58957

**NCPatrolAR** · 07-29-10, 11:35

THe shotgun is still sitting in patrol cars, IMO, because a great deal of people view it as being able to spew an ominipotent ball of death each time it is fired. The shotgun isn't really well suited to any one task but people tend think it's the best thing going.

As already mentioned; the patrol rifle is typically more user friendly (fit, recoil, loading/unloading, etc) than the shotgun. The patrol rifle also offers a greater level of precision not afforded by the shotgun. If I was rolling into an active shooter situation; I'd much rather have the rifle since there is no risk of a flyer or an increase in pattern size you weren't expecting.

We will always see the shotgun in the hands of non-LE. As time progresses though; I think you will see them in fewer and fewer patrol cars.

**DMR** · 07-29-10, 11:35

Speaking strictly from the military perspective I already have this out there:

http://pro-patria.us/full_spectrum_shotgun
Operational Roles of the Shotgun:

The greatest strength of the shotgun and its greatest weakness is the versatility of its ammo. Everything from bird hunting loads, slugs, flares; to 12 ga. High Explosive rounds are available today. Currently the Army only authorizes a few loads: #9 Shot, 00 Buck, M-1030 Breaching rounds, M-1012 and 1013 Less Lethal rounds. Other rounds such as the Action FRAG-12 (USMC), Joint Non-Lethal Warning Munition (JNLWM), XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade and the Extended Range Point Less-Lethal Munitions are in various stages of development and should be expected to lead to new training requirements. This leaves a bewildering array of possible roles, anti-personnel, breaching, less-lethal, ect based on the type of rounds at the commanders disposal. Further many rounds can be used in multiple roles. For example 00 buck can be used to conduct breaches, but presents an increased risk of collateral damage to civilians of fellow soldiers. Also, lack of a STRAC that sufficiently supports training with the shotgun has extremely hampered commanders understanding the shotgun.

Currently, the shotguns roles can be divided into three general roles: 1. Offensive Weapon, 2. Breacher, 3. Less-Lethal Munitions delivery system.

As an offensive weapon the shotgun should be employed as a full stocked weapon employing 00# buckshot rounds, supported by a pistol (M-9 or M-9A1 for the US military). In this role commanders must account for the limited effective range of the shotgun. Employing the current 00# buckshot loads 25-35 meters is the soldier’s realistic effective range. Employed without a stock this range is reduced to approximately 10-15 meters. Future munitions such as the Action FRAG-12 or a type classified slug round combined with an improved sighting systems should be expected to increase this range to 100 meters when accompanied by an improved sighting system.

In the breaching role the shotgun provides the commander with increased momentum when conducting urban operations. The breaching shotgun is extremely effective in quickly defeating locked doors with reduced risk to the soldier compared to manual breaching methods. The M-1030 round is the primary breaching round, however, has only been procured in small numbers. The M-1030 round presents the most effective breaching round and presents the lowest risk for collateral damage. Commanders should also be aware that M-1030 rounds are not effective anti-personal rounds much further than arms reach.

In the role of less-lethal munitions delivery system the 12 gauge shotgun offers exceptional versatility. Utilizing the shotgun instead of systems such as the FN-303 Individual Serviceman Non-Lethal System (ISNLS) reduces the training and sustainment burden on the commander also, since he already has shotguns organic to the unit. Here, more then any area, though the lack of training ammo or qualification standards has defeated the commander. The current M-1012 round provides the commander with a low to medium point pain compliance munitions effective to about 30 meters. The M-1012 round is most effective in a low threat environment against an individual target. The M-1013 is a medium pain compliance round designed for use against multiple targets, however, it is also effective against a point target. Munitions such as the USMC Sting ball grenade or Army XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade, with grenade launching cup extend the less lethal range up to 100 meters. Employed from the grenade launching cup attached to the shotgun the commander has an extremely effective method of dispersing rioting mobs. Developmental rounds such as the Flarebang also provide the commander with the ability to deliver more effective warning shots by providing a visual and audio cue. This round should approve exceptionally effective at check points

I'm not an expert on the LE side, but it does have some pro's. Again, like the military, lack of training is a big downside to the shotgun. Several of the LE's that post here that qual consists of firing 10 rounds once a year. Put simply that's crap. the shotgun is manipultion intensive to operate, with the old 870 or 590 being even more so then a qualty semi shotgun. Backed by sufficent training and a sidearm the shotgun is still a viable platform within limited roles. Knowing what those roles and what those limits are only come from quality training programs. Just imange a carbine program that only called for firing 10 rounds a year

In general I view the shotgun as a specialty weapon/tool. You can have a good duty grade shotgun for half the cost of a M-4 or Gucci it up till it's the same cost as a high end M-4. Given that broad frame work you then have to ask where it fits in your frame work. A base shotgun is a cost effective tool for agencies and individuals. You are not going to hold off hoards of angry mobs for days with the amout of shotgun ammo you can carry, but you can get ammo just about anywhere in large amounts.

You also might want to consider most HD/LE shootings still occure within shotgun ranges, in low light, on moving targets and end in typicaly how many rounds fired? Can a shotgun perform all of those functions? Also, for some of the HD masses a practical carbine just not feasible for legal or other reasons. No it is not the answer to all issues, but it does still have a role to play,
your milage may vary.

**KTR03** · 07-29-10, 11:36

What I meant by margin of error, is that if a shot pattern spreads an inch a yard (give or take) you have a larger impact area than with a pistol round. You still have to aim (i have seen lots of folks miss clean), but you don't have to be as precise.

We spend a bunch of time "getting to know your shotgun/load". A hans vang gun will be usable at 30 -35 yards. A box stock 870 using basic buckshot, is more like 25. We teach using slugs to engage at longer range or to deliver penetrating fire through car doors...as we have found that much of the "low recoil, tactical buckshot" won't pentrate much in terms of intermediate barriers.

**streck** · 07-29-10, 11:39

Originally Posted by KTR03

What I meant by margin of error, is that if a shot pattern spreads an inch a yard (give or take) you have a larger impact area than with a pistol round. You still have to aim (i have seen lots of folks miss clean), but you don't have to be as precise.

True for hitting your target but what's behind the target? I was speaking from the perspective of keeping as much shot on target as possible being the ideal.