Still a role for the shotgun?

[m24shooter]

Interesting.

Any idea who it was they asked?

No idea of the names. O_P asked their rep at SHOT.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53616&page=2

FMD knows one of their engineers or something, and he's talked to him numerous times about it and apparently gotten the same answer from him. You would have to ask him about those details.

I'm inclined to believe it as there is no product offering in the LE line with #4B or #1B. DocGKR has said that the #1B would probably be a very good load with optimal penetration and a lot more wound tracks due to #1B being about the ideal shotgun load and that #4B if loaded correctly could be as good or at least very near it.

[m24shooter]

Double post.

[REDinFL]

Lots of good information in here; I'd like to toss in my 2cents and you are being overcharged for what it's worth.

I have a shotgun. I also have an M4 - recent trade, had not shot an AR platform since the handguards were triangular and the forward assist was a "new idea."

While a shotgun is useful for home defense I actually find a handgun superior. As others have alluded to, the shotgun does not spray out a pattern that goes wall-to-wall. A rule of thumb is about 1" spread per yard of travel from the muzzle. Trust me, in a normal room, you will have to be pretty much as close to center with a shotgun as a pistol. Room of, say, 14 x 18? Longest dimension is 6 yards. That's about 6" of spread. Yes, if you would miss with a pistol you might wound with a shotgun. As miserable as shotgun wounds are, a peripheral one won't necessarily put the perp down.

A shotgun is unwieldy. Swing one around. I also agree with the comment about short-stroking on a shotgun. In some stress situations one might be better off with an autoloader.

A shotgun is intimidating. No question.

But, a shotgun is loud and, depending on the load, puts out a flash. Not the best thing in a confined area.

I consider my shotgun useful in a SHTF situation for defending a position against attack from 50 yards to up close. The M4 likely is better. Since getting my M4, I consider the shotgun a boat gun, ideal with slugs as well as buckshot. Separate discussion.

Your location also enters into it. Some jurisdictions are more problematic than others regarding handgun use. In those, the shotgun is the way to go. If a handgun is not a problem, some decent hollow point 9mm in a longer barreled pistol is the way to go - the longer barrel allows the powder to burn and not be as big a flash. Ditto a good quality .38+P in a decent barrel. Not only is something like a 4 " barrel easier to handle, there's less for the opponent to grab.

Look also at theboxotruth.com for some tests on shotgun, carbine and handgun ammunition vs. wallboard.

[AZ-Renegade]

Our service issues out M4s and Remington 870 with 14 inch barrels.

While I still train with one, I personally do not use the shotgun. When I do go in the field I religiously sign out an M4. Since a lot of our work is done outdoors in remote areas, I prefer a long arm that can reach out and touch someone if needed and has superior ammo capacity.

There have been rumors that the service may actually phase out the 870. While I won't go so far as to say that the shotgun is obsolete, I believe for our use the M4 is superior. In my mind the only advantage over the M4 that the shotgun possesses for us is "shock and awe."

As stated above, when firing a shotgun in low light, especially with slugs, there is a spectacular white muzzle flash. This flash effectively kills your night vision, making it difficult for a quick follow up sight picture on your threat.

On top of that, all of the major engagements south of the border between cartel/mexican authorities or cartel/cartel, body armor has been employed by cartel members.

Since much of our work is done along the border, and since the worst case scenario threat that we face is from drug trafficking organizations, I prefer to see agents deploy to the field with a weapon that can defeat soft body armor at extended ranges.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'm still waiting for someone to cite a court case, in any state, where any form of "legal prejudice" against a particular firearm or ammunition was a deciding factor in a successful prosecution of a homeowner in a home defense scenario.

I came across an article on this issue:

http://www.astcweb.org/public/public...-Armed-Citizen

I am not sold on the conclusions; however, it does discuss the issues you were looking for.

[dwhitehorne]

I must admit to being a big shotgun fan. I have carried one on duty for years and think it is a valueable weapon when working around vehicles. I have gone through many long gun variations over the past 25 years. I carried 870's on MSG duty where the metal folding stock would bloody the inside of your mouth. In the 90's with another agency, our long gun options were MP5's with ball ammo and woodstock 870's with the front bead. At my current agency we have ditched the M16A1's and gone to LWRC's and we still have a large selection of 14 inch barrel Scattergun Tech 870's. Being a shotgun fanboy and growing up with a Winchester 120 and a 1100 I have never thought twice about signing out a 12 guage. Well 2 years ago I went through a 3 day active shooter class. Everyone was going for the simunition carbines in class so manly me took a trusty 14inch 870. After 3 days of sweating to death humping around my shortbarrel 870, I gained new insight on the shotgun and room clearing. (I don't like single point slings now either) I can't count how many times I short stroked the action by pinching the meaty part of my palm between the forearm and the receiver during that class. I carry my LWRC mostly now. Just my 2 cents.

[RWK]

I came across an article on this issue:

http://www.astcweb.org/public/public...-Armed-Citizen

I am not sold on the conclusions; however, it does discuss the issues you were looking for.

Thanks for that. Still more theory.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I am of the opinion the weapon's appearance is a tertiary concern at best in regards to solving the problem at hand.

The study presented an ambiguous situation, one which would likely be very dependent on the jury's opinions to sway either way, and they used the weapon as a mitigating or aggravating factor.

You can avoid this by better contact management, better understanding of lethal force laws, and better law enforcement contact management.