Still a role for the shotgun?

[KTR03]

My training on shotguns comes from a variety of MIL/LE folks - Oakland PD, USMC, Marin SO (some good and some bad) and good old John Farnam at DTI.

Since I went over to Saiga's, shotgun training is really more about figuring out shot patterns, penetration, POI onslugs and less about the manual of arms.

[cfrazier]

Training consist of department, and I don't mean your average dept. training. The class was two days long and covered loading drills, shooting on the move, transistioning and house clearing.

Other instruction is from TDI and soon Rob Haught.

[ST911]

So what say you all. Genuinely interested in your opinions.

What your friend said:

nothing a shotgun offers that an ar15 doesn't. ARs are more versatile, more accurate, easier to keep running, easier to train with, are suitable for nearly all body types... Shotguns should go the way of the 686 as a primary duty/fighting tool.

I generally agreee, subject to some definition and further refinement of the points above.

Rifles deliver more ammunition, more precisely, under a broader range of distances, by a broader range of shooter types and proficiency levels.

They cannot deliver the specialty munitions that a SG can. I've had both SGs and rifles in my ride for years, and no longer get the SG out for any other reason.

The "intimidation" factor of the SG is BS and needs to die, as does the old saw of the racking of the shotgun striking fear into the hearts of evil.

I would further assert that the SG is not a long arm for the novice, but for the specialist.

[TehLlama]

The only occasion we saw fit to bother with using a shotgun in Helmand was when we were on a planned mission to go be door-to-door selling lead cookies. Partway through, higher yanked the original mission and made it a soft knock on an HVI (wtf?), and the squad of grunts I was attached to came to the conclusion that it would be nothing more than a paperweight.

The applications of shotguns have diverged into more sporting oriented uses, and specialized uses (breaching, offensive CQC, less lethal), with the specialized uses for LE/Mil being common for units that get special training anyway, with shotguns becoming more an extension of an existing toolset and skillset than a primary weapon system.

On the civilian end, I feel I should do what I can to learn how to fight effectively with shotguns (as wide a variety as possible), even the stuff Clint Smith does with break actions shows that they're the best tools for the money. That said, the only instance I'm looking at a shotgun over a carbine and/or rifle would be a barricaded defense situation - the comfort level is just so much higher with the other two, I'd rather use the less effective (on paper) tool that I'm more proficient with.

[Polymerhead]

I am not mil/leo, but as an average homeowner I have a lot of respect for (and confidence in) my shotgun. For me, it stems from the fact that our HD plan relies on the security alarm, backed up by a dog, as an early warning system. No kids for me, so HD is purely defensive. That means send the wife to the master bathroom and then on into the master closet (it’s off the bathroom, which is off the bedroom) if the opportunity presents itself. My house couldn’t be a better fatal funnel if I designed it from the ground up, so a solid defensive position with light-equipped 12 Ga is natural for me. Our HD 12 Ga has a youth stock on it, and a simple crossbolt safety. Combined with the simple mantra of load-what-you-shoot (meaning replace rounds as possible when you run a pump), I think we’re set up pretty well.

As an average Joe, I have 10 shotgun rounds downrange for every carbine round. I’ve been shooting sporting clays every summer for 8 years, average 3 or 4 cases of shells a summer and I duck/dove/quail hunt in the fall and winter. A shotgun is like an extension of myself, so it’s natural that I have one for HD.

Just thought you might want a non-technical line of thought from a guy who likes his 12 Ga a whole lot.

[lebowski]

I'm also not LEO, just an ordinary armed citizen. I think mostly a shotgun is for shooting clays and birds, though ...

In a home invasion type situation, if given the choice, I'd choose my DDM4 w/ aimpoint over my 870 tactical in a heartbeat. However, when choosing which one to assign bedside duty, the reality is it makes more sense to leave the $2000 carbine (including optic, etc) in the gun safe and the $400 shotgun (along with a Glock 31) accessible in my bedroom. I also have a fairly narrow "fatal funnel" leading into my bedroom, and even though I prefer the carbine I do feel that 6 rds of 00 buck should be able to do the job in most any realistic scenario.

[Jake'sDad]

If you are L.E. or MIL the best kept secret in shotgun instruction or shotgun instructor certification is Bill Jeans (formerly with Gunsite) who owns Morrigan Consulting. His mantra is "I am not here to teach you to shoot a shotgun, I am here to teach you to fight with a shotgun" With both military and L.E. experience and many years of being an instructor he is the real deal.

+1

I've not had the pleasure of taking a class from him, but I've met him, and have several friends who have taken his class. His credentials are impeccable.

Consider me one of the dinosaurs that still has a loaded 870 with a Surefire light in the bedroom for those bumps in the night. They didn't let the regular beat car jockeys carry a rifle in my day, so it was the Wingmaster that was in my hands for countless hot stops, high risk search warrants, canyon searches and robberies in progress, so it just feels right for me. I think I have a realistic idea of what it's capabilities and limitations are, and I have rifles around if I need one. My home would definitely be a bad choice for a home invasion......

[LHS]

I think there are valid arguments that the shotgun is a specialized tool in the LE/Mil setting, but I'm neither LE nor Mil so my opinion isn't worth much on that. I'm a civilian concerned primarily with home defense. I still consider my 870 my primary home defense longarm. I have more trigger time behind an 870 than an AR, and I know the manual of arms better. Inside the confines of my little condo, the shotgun's spread isn't an issue. While it's not the insta-kill death ray that some claim, it certainly delivers crushing terminal ballistics quickly. 00 buck at close range is as good as anything man-portable.

[556A2]

The biggest one is over penetration. If you are using 00 BUCK, and have people in other rooms or neighbors close by, I would be very concerned about letting just one BB getting out.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

00 buckshot will penetrate less than handgun rounds, and most centerfire rifle rounds. Over penetration is a concern with any weapons system IMO.

Which leads me to the opinion that the only SG worth owning for HD is an auto loader and of those, the brand needs to start with the letter "B."

I also disagree with this.

Comparing a $1,000+ Benelli M series to a Remington 870 is a bit unfair.

We are talking about a weapon that has a 250,000 shell service life, requires minimal upkeep, has 50+ years of support, has no 922r issues, can be bought used at any podunk gun shop in America for about $150, and will only malfunction if it not used correctly.

Short-stroking is a valid issue, but its remedied by training with your weapon.

[C4IGrant]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

00 buckshot will penetrate less than handgun rounds, and most centerfire rifle rounds. Over penetration is a concern with any weapons system IMO.

I would suggest that you do some more research on the subject as your assumptions are incorrect.

Pistol's have the same issues as SG ammo. No fragmentation. This is why the AR (in .223/5.56 is the superior choice).

Comparing a $1,000+ Benelli M series to a Remington 870 is a bit unfair.

Who made this comparison? What I said is that IF you were going with an auto loading SG, your best bet (read most reliable option) is one that starts with the letter "B."

We are talking about a weapon that has a 250,000 shell service life, requires minimal upkeep, has 50+ years of support, has no 922r issues, can be bought used at any podunk gun shop in America for about $150, and will only malfunction if it not used correctly.

Short-stroking is a valid issue, but its remedied by training with your weapon.

No question that pump guns are less maintenance, but that was neve the point of the discussion.

Negative again on "more training." The short stroking I have witnessed (FIRST HAND) was NOT from noobs that just bought a SG.


C4