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Thread: 20" freefloated bull barrel AR

  1. #1
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    20" freefloated bull barrel AR

    I have read all the stickies and searched and have a good sense of what this board considers quality AR manufacturers. I really want to add an AR to my collection but I have to justify it, don't want a range toy either.

    I want an AR that is more precise than my 2.5 mao SGL-31. It shoots 12 cent surplus rounds so for the AR to be justified I would want 1.5 MOA with surplus ammo, not match ammo or handloads.

    I would want a 20" barrel for velocity to at least match the 5.45x39 surplus round.

    I've seen the DPMS 20" bull barrel freefloated upper do this (shoot 1" MOA with Federal XM193AF), but obviously this is not a recommended rifle for defense duty. What I have seen from the BCM 20" has been no better than my Arsenal as far as precision.

    From the recommended builders none offer this configuration, unless I am missing something.

    Can someone recommend a quality AR upper that will beat the snot out of my AK that doesn't require expensive ammo for 1.5 ish moa precision?

  2. #2
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    If you insist on a 20" upper, I'd suggest going with the BCM 20". If you're going to shoot it from the bench, throw a TA31RCO on it, some 75's / 77's and call it a day....

    Not sure what you mean by the BCM being on par with an AK for accuracy though. Have you ever fired the BCM?



    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    I have read all the stickies and searched and have a good sense of what this board considers quality AR manufacturers. I really want to add an AR to my collection but I have to justify it, don't want a range toy either.

    I want an AR that is more precise than my 2.5 mao SGL-31. It shoots 12 cent surplus rounds so for the AR to be justified I would want 1.5 MOA with surplus ammo, not match ammo or handloads.

    I would want a 20" barrel for velocity to at least match the 5.45x39 surplus round.

    I've seen the DPMS 20" bull barrel freefloated upper do this (shoot 1" MOA with Federal XM193AF), but obviously this is not a recommended rifle for defense duty. What I have seen from the BCM 20" has been no better than my Arsenal as far as precision.

    From the recommended builders none offer this configuration, unless I am missing something.

    Can someone recommend a quality AR upper that will beat the snot out of my AK that doesn't require expensive ammo for 1.5 ish moa precision?
    Last edited by GermanSynergy; 08-04-10 at 08:24.
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  3. #3
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    You will not get a "guarantee" of accuracy using surplus ammo.

    There is a reason why it is surplus and cheap. The round to round consitency in velocity, bullet weight, bullet concentricty, etc is just not going to be there and as such you will not get consistent impact locations on the target. The key to accuracy is repeatability. Even if you are perfect in your application of shooting fundamentals with a perfect free floated barrel you won't get consitent results if you aren't using consistent ammunition. The physics just aren't there.

    If you are consistently getting 2.5 MOA out of your AK with any surplus ammo, you must be very very lucky in buying surplus. So all of your shots with your AK are hitting within 2.5 inches at 100 yards using any surplus?

    What scope are you using? What ammo? How many shots in your group?

    Most AR's won't do that using US surplus XM193....

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    Hello,

    If you can live without a fixed FSB and with 4 extra inches of barrel, The Colt Accurized Rifle should work nicely.

    Colt Accurized Rifle. http://www.colt.com/law/car.asp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    What scope are you using? What ammo? How many shots in your group?

    Most AR's won't do that using US surplus XM193....
    A PSOP scope, I'm using the russian surplus 7n6(?) from aims surplus $120/1000. Consistant worst 2.5 MOA with 5 shots. Its very good ammo but corrosive. I believe this is about what the AR guys with 5.45 uppers report.

    My friend has a BCM 20" AR and does a little better at grouping than me but not more than 1/2" better and his ammo I think is ~$350 per 1k. We chrono about the same so I don't think I would want a 16" barrel for 5.56.

    Just makes it hard to justify an AR. I'm sure when they outlaw russian ammo I'll be singing a different tune.

    Maybe BCM has plans to produce a bull barrel 20"er?

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    A 20" SAM-R , but it's not a bull barrel.... If you're looking for an accurate 20" platform, this would be the ticket...

    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-U...m-urg-samr.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post

    Maybe BCM has plans to produce a bull barrel 20"er?
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  7. #7
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    Have you ever considered that your friend can't shoot? I know for a fact that my Noveske will shoot about 1 MOA with my Leupold Mk4 MR/T and it will shoot about 2.5" with regular ball ammo.

    It has a 16" barrel. With true 5.56 ammo I am probably at around 2800 FPS. Not sure since I don't have a chrono.

    Exactly why are you so concerened about MV or barrel length? It is fact that longer barrels do not equate to accuracy. Last weekend we shot my 11.5" SBR with an ACOG and 55gr. ammo and I was able to hit a steel plate at approx. 280 yds. in a half ass modified supported position.

    If you use good ammo you will get the job done.

    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    A PSOP scope, I'm using the russian surplus 7n6(?) from aims surplus $120/1000. Consistant worst 2.5 MOA with 5 shots. Its very good ammo but corrosive. I believe this is about what the AR guys with 5.45 uppers report.

    My friend has a BCM 20" AR and does a little better at grouping than me but not more than 1/2" better and his ammo I think is ~$350 per 1k. We chrono about the same so I don't think I would want a 16" barrel for 5.56.

    Just makes it hard to justify an AR. I'm sure when they outlaw russian ammo I'll be singing a different tune.

    Maybe BCM has plans to produce a bull barrel 20"er?



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  8. #8
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    And not to mention I believe that our own Molon and others have stated that you really need to shoot 10 shot groups to get an accurate picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    You will not get a "guarantee" of accuracy using surplus ammo.

    There is a reason why it is surplus and cheap. The round to round consitency in velocity, bullet weight, bullet concentricty, etc is just not going to be there and as such you will not get consistent impact locations on the target. The key to accuracy is repeatability. Even if you are perfect in your application of shooting fundamentals with a perfect free floated barrel you won't get consitent results if you aren't using consistent ammunition. The physics just aren't there.

    If you are consistently getting 2.5 MOA out of your AK with any surplus ammo, you must be very very lucky in buying surplus. So all of your shots with your AK are hitting within 2.5 inches at 100 yards using any surplus?

    What scope are you using? What ammo? How many shots in your group?

    Most AR's won't do that using US surplus XM193....



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanSynergy View Post
    A 20" SAM-R , but it's not a bull barrel.... If you're looking for an accurate 20" platform, this would be the ticket...

    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-U...m-urg-samr.htm
    Agreed this is what is needed to get significant gain in accuracy over a Russian AK-74. Time to start saving 'cause my fear is the quality surplus ammo importation will be outlawed.

    On the other hand the guy posted 2.5" MOA with his AR on surplus ammo, right now I get this for 13 cents a round with my Arsenal.

    I guess I always had this expectation that for under a grand an AR would beat the crap out of my AK, but in reality you need either an expensive AR or expensive ammo. So right now its a bit of a catch 22 for me to invest in an AR.

    The biggest benefit I see is ergonomics, I really dislike the scope position on the AK. Shooting my freinds BCM is much more natural and quicker.

  10. #10
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    If you're shooting wolf or brown bear, it doesn't matter how nice the barrel is, the ammo isn't consistent enough to beat the groups you are seeing with the AK with similar ammo.

    Now, if you step up from the $.20/shot wolf/brown bear/silver bear to $.45/shot Prvi Match ammo, your group size will drop to sub-moa if not for occasional flyers. It isn't until you reload or buy the GOOD $.80/shot ammo that you get sub half-moa groups out of a good upper, extracting every bit of performance from it.

    (xm193 will get 1.5" groups, which is much better than the 3"+ groups seen with wolf/brown bear... but the Prvi still fragments, making it my preferred option for that price range.)

    Also, about the bull barrel.... I have one. It is HEAVY. It is definitely a bench gun only. And it holds a LOT of heat, taking a while to cool down. If you don't need to shoot long strings of ammo between cooldown periods, I'd recommend a thinner profile than the standard 1" bull. 20" of 1" thick stainless steel is heavy.

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