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Thread: 20" freefloated bull barrel AR

  1. #11
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    You must have an exceptional AK74. Most reports I have seen and heard indicate that 2.5-3 MOA is the normal. Most good AR's will do at least that.

    There is also no concern about fogetting to clean the weapon like there is with corrosive ammo.

    It seems like you have already made up your mind. Maybe you should just stick with the AK74?

    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    Agreed this is what is needed to get significant gain in accuracy over a Russian AK-74. Time to start saving 'cause my fear is the quality surplus ammo importation will be outlawed.

    On the other hand the guy posted 2.5" MOA with his AR on surplus ammo, right now I get this for 13 cents a round with my Arsenal.

    I guess I always had this expectation that for under a grand an AR would beat the crap out of my AK, but in reality you need either an expensive AR or expensive ammo. So right now its a bit of a catch 22 for me to invest in an AR.

    The biggest benefit I see is ergonomics, I really dislike the scope position on the AK. Shooting my freinds BCM is much more natural and quicker.



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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    Agreed this is what is needed to get significant gain in accuracy over a Russian AK-74. Time to start saving 'cause my fear is the quality surplus ammo importation will be outlawed.

    On the other hand the guy posted 2.5" MOA with his AR on surplus ammo, right now I get this for 13 cents a round with my Arsenal.

    I guess I always had this expectation that for under a grand an AR would beat the crap out of my AK, but in reality you need either an expensive AR or expensive ammo. So right now its a bit of a catch 22 for me to invest in an AR.

    The biggest benefit I see is ergonomics, I really dislike the scope position on the AK. Shooting my freinds BCM is much more natural and quicker.
    Even if it isn't outlawed, eventually all the surplus will dry up. Alot of the stuff on the market now is from countries that have recently joined NATO and are selling off their non-NATO ammo stocks or others that have seen an opportunity to sell off old stocks of ammo for more than they paid for them and cycle in fresher ammo supplies.

    When all that stuff is gone you will have to buy new production ammo, which will be more closer in price to what you have to pay for NATO spec ammo. It still probably won't be as expensive as brass cased NATO ammo, but it will be more expensive than it is now.

    As to a reason to get one (irrespective of any accuracy improvement), I can tell you from my experience, as good as you are with an AK, you will probably be better/faster with an AR. My 1st military type rifle was a Polytech AKS 762 side-folder (Which I still have) and one day I did a comparison between that rifle and a Colt 6920. The Colt won hands down when it came to practical accuracy, ease of 1st round hits, reloading speed and remedial action drills. This was with me having a good 10 years more personal experience with that AK. Do yourself a favor, set up some targets at various ranges, get 2 or 3 magazines with random ammuntion amounts & dummy rounds in them and then time yourself with both. I think you will be genuinely suprised. I was.

  3. #13
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    What exactly are your needs? You have yet to state them.

    I get the feeling you want your cake and eat it. Which clearly is not the case with any firearm.

    BTW the DPMS 20" Bull config doesn't have a 5.56 chamber, meaning you're not going to be able to shoot surplus (NATO surplus), or at least for a long period of time. You could however shoot wolf/brown bear/etc but your not going to get your magical accuracy for $.20/round.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTechnik View Post
    If you're shooting wolf or brown bear, it doesn't matter how nice the barrel is, the ammo isn't consistent enough to beat the groups you are seeing with the AK with similar ammo.

    Now, if you step up from the $.20/shot wolf/brown bear/silver bear to $.45/shot Prvi Match ammo, your group size will drop to sub-moa if not for occasional flyers. It isn't until you reload or buy the GOOD $.80/shot ammo that you get sub half-moa groups out of a good upper, extracting every bit of performance from it.

    (xm193 will get 1.5" groups, which is much better than the 3"+ groups seen with wolf/brown bear... but the Prvi still fragments, making it my preferred option for that price range.)

    Also, about the bull barrel.... I have one. It is HEAVY. It is definitely a bench gun only. And it holds a LOT of heat, taking a while to cool down. If you don't need to shoot long strings of ammo between cooldown periods, I'd recommend a thinner profile than the standard 1" bull. 20" of 1" thick stainless steel is heavy.



    Very good info, thanks. Xm193 @ 1.5MOA would be a significant upgrade. The prices on the S&W M&P-15's are good right now I may try one of those.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    You will not get a "guarantee" of accuracy using surplus ammo.

    There is a reason why it is surplus and cheap. The round to round consitency in velocity, bullet weight, bullet concentricty, etc is just not going to be there and as such you will not get consistent impact locations on the target. The key to accuracy is repeatability. Even if you are perfect in your application of shooting fundamentals with a perfect free floated barrel you won't get consitent results if you aren't using consistent ammunition. The physics just aren't there.

    If you are consistently getting 2.5 MOA out of your AK with any surplus ammo, you must be very very lucky in buying surplus. So all of your shots with your AK are hitting within 2.5 inches at 100 yards using any surplus?

    What scope are you using? What ammo? How many shots in your group?

    Most AR's won't do that using US surplus XM193....
    Bingo!! To the OP;
    I load all my 5.56/223 my self for range/practice I use surplus 55gr bullets I bought a few years back..Weighing these bullets gets you some interesting results..they will vary in weight by as much as 3gr either way..accuracy wise, they'll be accurate enough to get the job done..If you're looking for 1.5 MOA accuracy with surplus..It ain't gonna happen..you'll have to load your own with better bullets..The L.C. cases are fine, probably some of the best quality wise, The bullets the military uses just aren't of very high quality. I have a target AR that has a 22" S.S. douglas bbl, freefloated, About 1" thick, jewell trigger, Burris scope, using L.C. cases, WC 844 powder (surplus powder) and 52 gr Serria's I can shoot 10 shot groups that measure 3/4" @100yds.. At 300yds it'll do 2 3/4" for 10 shot groups.

    10 shot groups..this is the gold standard for accuracy..5 shot groups mean nothing,period. If you can put 10 rounds into 1.5 or whatever size you're looking for, then you're doing something, But most importantly, you're getting a real, consistent,picture of what kind of accuracy your rifle is capable of.

    You've gotten some good advice here, I don't have a problem with AK's, But, I do believe the AR is a superior platform, and your fears of running out of affordable surplus ammo is'nt unfounded..Soviet surplus is going to run out one day,And I don't think that day is too far off, and there is'nt much support for reloading them either,(reloadable cases, bullets)and not alot in the way of loading data. So, sooner or later you're going to start paying more, much more, for ammo, At least with the AR, quality reloading componets are easily found, and reasonably priced, Also take into consideration your friend's AR is only a sample of one, and there's also the question of his abilitys.. So, I would'nt put alot into that compairison. Anyway if you're thinking of switching to a AR, now is the time, Never before has there been such a wide selection of high quality AR's for reasonable prices. For what it's worth, Buy a quality AR, and don't look back...
    Last edited by ralph; 08-04-10 at 16:49.
    There's a race of men who don't fit in, A race that can't stay still, So, they break the hearts of kith and kin, and roam the world at will..

  6. #16
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    Ok yes surplus ammo varies. But load it into a Rem700 and it will still be less than 1" MOA, at least decent surplus.

    I guess my whole issue is a lot of folks swear buy the DPMS 20" Bull barrel freefloated upper that sells for $500 as being able to handle suprplus and shoot it very accurately.

    But I don't believe in range plinkers and I wouldn't be comfortable with the DPMS if I were to defend my life with it for an extended period.

    I just think BCM or one of the other quality AR builders should offer a similiar upper instead of all the focus on M4 and lighter builds which are all the rage but really make the AR less attractive to possible AK converts.

    At this point I think I am just going to buy a scoped .308 bolt action, it exceeds in the areas where the AR&AK can't.

    I do appreciate all the input, you guys are very knowledgeable and I am sure I will be back as I feel a bit of an odd man out not owning an AR

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    Ok yes surplus ammo varies. But load it into a Rem700 and it will still be less than 1" MOA, at least decent surplus.

    I guess my whole issue is a lot of folks swear buy the DPMS 20" Bull barrel freefloated upper that sells for $500 as being able to handle suprplus and shoot it very accurately.

    But I don't believe in range plinkers and I wouldn't be comfortable with the DPMS if I were to defend my life with it for an extended period.
    Most surplus ammo, even decent surplus ammo, will NOT be less than 1 MOA even through a Remington 700 for all the reasons previously explained in this thread.

    If you attempt to shoot Surplus 5.56 through a DPMS with a .223 chamber, you're going to experience nothing but problems, including (but not limited to) popped primers tying up the action due to over pressure.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Hunter View Post
    My 1st military type rifle was a Polytech AKS 762 side-folder (Which I still have) and one day I did a comparison between that rifle and a Colt 6920. The Colt won hands down when it came to practical accuracy, ease of 1st round hits, reloading speed and remedial action drills. This was with me having a good 10 years more personal experience with that AK. Do yourself a favor, set up some targets at various ranges, get 2 or 3 magazines with random ammuntion amounts & dummy rounds in them and then time yourself with both. I think you will be genuinely suprised. I was.

    This was really good advice. I finally broke down and bought an M&P-15 for the $600 special a while back(got one of the last ones). Just setting it up now, but damn the ergonomics are just so superior to the AK, its hard to put in words. I mean I love the AK but if I have to carry and shoot my way thru woods and terrain the M4gery is much "handier". And I just plain shoot it better. I was going to make it optics only but found a used YHM flipup site and am using a Magpull flipup BUIS (for weight savings.) My goal is to keep the rifle as light weight as possible, will add a micro-dot and a small LED flashlight.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by regal View Post
    This was really good advice. I finally broke down and bought an M&P-15 for the $600 special a while back(got one of the last ones). Just setting it up now, but damn the ergonomics are just so superior to the AK, its hard to put in words. I mean I love the AK but if I have to carry and shoot my way thru woods and terrain the M4gery is much "handier". And I just plain shoot it better. I was going to make it optics only but found a used YHM flipup site and am using a Magpull flipup BUIS (for weight savings.) My goal is to keep the rifle as light weight as possible, will add a micro-dot and a small LED flashlight.
    Glad I could help.

    It will only get better with the red dot.

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