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Thread: So the ole ATF stopped by....

  1. #61
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    In a little bit Im gonna go to the closest of the dealers Ive purchased from, and let them know about it/ask them if any other of their customers have said anything. I don't know if it makes any difference but they are a C3 dealer, and most of their sales are handguns and AR's.



    One of the ones was Cabelas, too, BTW. A few more shops around the area Ive purchased a just a few from.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVAN View Post
    Slow down. If the dealers turned over the records willingly, then the ATF has that info legally. I don't agree that the ATF should be barking up the tree of personal legal activities, but ascribing criminality to their actions is not gonna fly here.

    Thanks.
    Consider this scenario...

    The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

    They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

    It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

    But anyways, what can you one do...
    Last edited by Skyyr; 08-12-10 at 17:00.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    Did they say where they got the pics, B31r?



    Both my sister and BIL have both been arrested, and I think they were the mugshots of them. My BIL got arrested in 2006 for driving on a suspended license, and my stupid sister got arrested for writing several thousand worth of bad checks when she went off to college a long time ago.


    Not sure about the other ones. They asked about my parents by name.

  4. #64
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    I have no idea if they (atf) broke or stretched any laws. Were they there investigating criminal activity? Were they fishing for evidence? We seem to be blurring the lines of due process and exactly where everyone's place is at the table. No matter how you slice it, the OP was on the defensive. He had everything to lose. Not a good place to be. Again, they may have had legitimate business, but I don't like it one bit. The cartels don't need straw hats. That is just absurd. I guess any excuse will do these days.
    "Oh, its a wonderful day! My sun is shining, my birds are chirping, my humongous chicken defeated Elmo." Huxley

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no."
    One did in Virginia back during the DC sniper debacle.

  6. #66
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    The cartels absolutely do use straw purchasers.
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Consider this scenario...

    The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

    They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

    It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

    But anyways, what can you one do...


    I do think its just circumventing the no registery law but I think they have enough regulatory power getting all the 4473's they need isn't really an issue for them.


    I think there was 2 or 3 they didn't have records for even though I purchased it from a dealer but those were in WA and CA not TX. But all the ones I purchased in TX they did have. So logically, if Id never bought a gun while stationed in WA or CA, they would have had all the records of me purchasing a gun in this state.


    While not just 3-4 guns I seem like a really small fish when I have no more than 20, and they were purchased mostly over a 4 year period. Its not like Im buying 10 guns a month or something crazy. I maybe average one every 4 months. If you go back to 2006 when I started buying most of my stuff, and I had around 15 thats not an overly high or seemingly suspicious count.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Except for one, tiny, teeny, itsy-bitsy problem...

    THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RECORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE. In fact, since they were from five different dealers, it's virtually a given they got them in a technically illegal manner.

    That there says everything about their "intentions," in my opinion.
    Let me violate my statement about dropping out of the thread for a second.


    I was talking about bills of sale for face-to-face sales. Should have been obvious from the hard to find context clue I left.

    You know; the one that said "If I did FTF sales, it's a practice I'd be doing"

  9. #69
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    For FTF sales (with anyone I don't know well enough to let them borrow my car) I do a little letter where the buyer acknowledges the transfer, says that they've presented me with a valid Virginia DL, that they aren't a prohibited person, that they buy the gun as is, and that they absolve me of any and all liability involving the gun. I try to do transfers through a dealer if at all possible...as I'd rather have the ATF update their database with someone else's name on the gun.
    Last edited by John_Wayne777; 08-12-10 at 17:15.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyyr View Post
    Consider this scenario...

    The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

    They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

    It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

    But anyways, what can you one do...
    Quite simply, the ATF may not have any real interest in Belmont31R, his guns, or his family. Their binder of information may have been due diligence, acquired completely legally, and represents just one check box of "Nope, not involved.", on a long list of a long-term investigation of an FFL, a real gunrunner, or something else entirely.

    I don't like their methods, and I think it's scary that they come to you in an adversarial way, if you aren't really the subject. Or even if you are the subject, they have a reasonable idea that paperwork anomalies are not going to lead to anything.

    In their mind, this is routine work, and probably view that visit as the least adversarial method they have at their disposal. Even if you and I view it 180º oppositely from the agents.
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

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