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Thread: The need for Home Defense Training

  1. #1
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    The need for Home Defense Training

    This Saturday, myself and Sgt. Watson (T-County SO head firearms instructor) taught basic one man CQB to a church security team. The majority of the shooters have been attending our defensive pistol training for the last 1.5yrs. They are authorized to carry concealed in the church, have their State issued CCW, pass the Ohio LE qualification exam every year. They are all good shooters and far exceed the shooting capability of the majority of the LE in my county.

    None of them have had any real live fire experience in a building environment.

    The shoot house was nothing more than a simple "barrel house" which means that it wasn't anything complex or hard (like one would find at Blackwater).

    The reason for the background info on the shooters and description of the shoot house is to make sure that readers realize that the shooters were not some village idiot picked up off the street and that the shoot house was not anything exotic (read very basic).

    The first time through the house, the shooters were given ZERO instructions. They were just told that there were armed bad guys in the house and they needed to deal with them (using at least 2rds and preferably 4rds). All targets in the house were shoots (no decision targets were used at this time).

    The problems encountered:

    1. Poor decision making ability.
    2. Poor/no pieing knowledge.
    3. Poor use of cover.
    4. Poor accuracy /thrown rounds off target (max shot was 21ft).
    5. Most shots placed were not in "A" zones.
    6. Seeing part of a target through a doorway and leaving that unknown target to look for another one (instead of dealing with that one).
    7. Clearing rooms with finger on the trigger.

    After everyone had gone through, we explained all the errors witnessed and how to do it the right way.

    Second run had new targets put up. These are what I call "decision making targets". Targets are full color, life size, and at least one person in the target has a weapon (lot of hostage targets).

    Shooters again entered the barrel house one at a time.

    Problems encountered:

    1. Slow decision making ability (long periods of time spent on trying to identify who the threat was while exposing themselves to the threat).
    2. Rounds fired into a room (clearing it), then backing out of the room (instead of entering it).
    3. Moderate use of cover.
    4. Poor accuracy /thrown rounds off target (max shot was 21ft).
    5. Most shots placed were ineffective hits.
    6. Most shooters shot just 2rds. One shot was typically a "C" zone hit with the other round put on the bad guys weapon hand.
    7. Hostages shot (on purpose).
    8. Clearing corners with finger on the trigger.
    9. Crowding walls.
    10. Not seeking cover during a tactical or emergency reload.

    One of the things that combat veteran instructors always teach is that they only way you will know that your gun is empty is because it will stop making loud noises.

    In one instance, a shooter ran out of ammo and the weapon was in slide lock. He started to pie a corner, raised his gun to the threat and realized that he had no BB's in his BB slinger.

    I think it should be MANDATORY for folks that have a CCW or plan on using a firearm in the defense of their home to do some CQB based training. It is such an eye opening experience for people and they would benefit GREATLY from it.

    This thread's purpose was to open some eyes, have people think about what they don't know and discuss the subject a little. Please feel free to share info and ask questions.




    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-02-10 at 10:04.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    I think it should MANDATORY for folks that have a CCW or plan on using a firearm in their home defense to do some CQB based training. It is such an eye opening experience for people and they would benefit GREATLY from it.
    NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home is a very good curriculum for average citizens with the end goal usually to retreat to a safe room and call 911 (which is usually the right thing to do). It offers some advice on using cover and concealment, but not CQB per se.

    As far as "CQB" being mandatory training, I would be hesitant to agree simply due to what the qualifications might be for the instructor certification (and who does the certifying).

    So who gets to teach CQB to the average citizen? And in which facilities?

    In theory I agree with you, Grant.
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 09-02-10 at 10:20.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for this post. It really shows how much us average joes could learn. While I don't have anything constructive to add, I would love to fly out and attend a course or two in the future. I think it would be worth the airfare (frequent flier miles )
    "Oh, its a wonderful day! My sun is shining, my birds are chirping, my humongous chicken defeated Elmo." Huxley

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Cunningham View Post
    NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home is a very good curriculum for average citizens with the end goal usually to retreat to a safe room and call 911 (which is usually the right thing to do). It offers some advice on using cover and concealment, but not CQB per se.

    As far as "CQB" being mandatory training, I would be hesitant to agree simply due to what the qualifications might be for the instructor certification (and who does the certifying).

    So who gets to teach CQB to the average citizen? And in which facilities?

    In theory I agree with you, Grant.

    All good points. I have read the course for the NRA HD cert and have two local NRA instructors that teach it. I think it is a good starting point AND do agree that the BEST thing to do is to barricade yourself into a room, call 911, point gun at the door and wait it out.

    Where we get into problems with the above thought process is:

    1. There are children between the parents and the bad guy.
    2. You are not in your home (grocery store, mall, church, etc) and have to deal with the problem.

    When I say "CQB" I am not talking about 2-4 man clears (dynamic/offensive). I am talking about 1 man, slow (defensive) clearing.

    The problem right now is that the majority of the instructors that can, will and have the facilities to teach "home defense" either don't do it, do it once a year or don't let Civy's in. You and I are fortunate to have contact with two of the BEST CQB instructors in the world and can get into any class they teach on the subject. A lot of people do not get that option.

    As I have learned, LE and Ex-Mil are hesitant to teach this subject for fear of what their peers will think of them. I think that this keeps a lot of the other good instructors out there (which are qualified to teach the subject) from doing it. Then we get into the problem of training facilities. Most are controlled by an LE agency (federal or state) and do NOT allow Civy's into them.

    In regards to who is qualified to teach what, I would say that the shooter needs to choose the option that best fits their needs. For instance, if you are are active duty and kick doors in for the Military in IZ, then I would seek out a CQB instructor that has a lot of .Mil experience (like Vickers/Hackathorn). If you are LE (SWAT), then I would seek out a LE instructor or even a .Mil one (though they do some stuff differently and some things might not apply). For civy's, any of the above options would be great (if you can get into a class). These classes are few and far between and cost a lot of coin. This puts off most civy's and hinders their ability to train on the subject.

    One of the things that concerns me with noob shooters attending a "home defense" class, is that they might be trying to walk before they can crawl. I then think about the fact that people believe that FAT people should be spending their time losing weight VS learning how to shoot in a class.

    I think it is a good idea to know how to enter and exit rooms, hallways and doorways ALONG with working on ones accuracy and all the fundamentals.



    C4
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 09-02-10 at 10:25.

  5. #5
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    Any pictures or videos to go with this Grant? Just curious, mainly to see the basic set up you were using and also possible mistakes that others could learn from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pilotguyo540 View Post
    Thanks for this post. It really shows how much us average joes could learn. While I don't have anything constructive to add, I would love to fly out and attend a course or two in the future. I think it would be worth the airfare (frequent flier miles )
    I think what most people realize and don't think about or just don't realize is that the response time to a 911 call might be 20-30 minutes (like it is for me in Rural Ohio). That is a REALLY LONG TIME to have to deal with a nut job that is trying to kill myself and my family. I personally like the fact that I have a lot of HD based training (especially in the dark) and feel confident that I can "fix" the problem better than my local SO can. Being self reliant is good thing.


    We will be putting together a "home defense" class with Mr. Hackathorn in October (in Ohio).



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-02-10 at 10:06.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
    Any pictures or videos to go with this Grant? Just curious, mainly to see the basic set up you were using and also possible mistakes that others could learn from.
    Since this was for a local Church security team, no pics or video (sorry).

    The house was in the form of a letter "H." It had an opening at the front and three barrels (8ft high) in the middle. The shooter entered the first room and dealt with any threats and then had to pie the right side and left side of the middle wall (that was open on either end).

    The majority of the shots taken were under 8-10ft. If I would have said to any of the guys that went through the house that they would throw a round off a human sized target at 8-10ft, they would have called me a name.

    We humans do not do well when we get suprised (by a none moving, none shooting back, paper target).


    For pics and vids of the last Vickers Tactical HD class, check out this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58026




    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-16-10 at 11:10.

  8. #8
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    I know that I am VERY hesitant to teach single-man clearing.
    Jack Leuba
    Director of Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Since this was for a local Church security team, no pics or video (sorry).
    Thanks for the additional info... which I was in Ohio to train with you.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    I know that I am VERY hesitant to teach single-man clearing.
    What are your reasons why? I'm just curious to hear from one of our SME's on what their reservations would be. Thanks.

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