Virginia Drivers behave after July 1

[Bonk2029]

I think it will be short-lived. Someone will challenge it either on 8th Amendment grounds or on the grounds that it only applies to residents of VA. Or it will become an election year issue.

It has to be, at least from my non-lawyer mind, an equal protection issue. What the state legislature is doing, is creating two separate classes of bad drivers - those who will get pounded (VA residents) and those who won't (everyone else), even for the exact same offense.

As an LEO, I am not too tickled about this. I see several unintended results:
- Folks who move into VA from elsewhere will dawdle on getting their vehicles and licenses changed to reflect their new in-state addresses. DMV says you have 30 days from first date of residency, but why hurry if it means increasing your fines.
- The guilty pleas in traffic court will go way down, resulting in all of s being stuck in court even longer. A person who would have otherwise taken the lesson and moved on "hey, I done wrong" will see the potential pricetag on his guilty plea and subsequent conviction, and fight it on principle alone. Back when I was a traffic junkie, it was nothing to spend three hours of my morning in traffic court. That will increase, trust me.
- More people will have suspended licenses. A person gets a ticket, can't afford to pay the civil penalties, gets suspended, then can't afford to pay whatever DMV wants to get his license reinstated, even if he is an otherwise decent driver.

[/tax rant off]

[John_Wayne777]

As an LEO, I am not too tickled about this. I see several unintended results:
- Folks who move into VA from elsewhere will dawdle on getting their vehicles and licenses changed to reflect their new in-state addresses. DMV says you have 30 days from first date of residency, but why hurry if it means increasing your fines.
- The guilty pleas in traffic court will go way down, resulting in all of s being stuck in court even longer. A person who would have otherwise taken the lesson and moved on "hey, I done wrong" will see the potential pricetag on his guilty plea and subsequent conviction, and fight it on principle alone. Back when I was a traffic junkie, it was nothing to spend three hours of my morning in traffic court. That will increase, trust me.
- More people will have suspended licenses. A person gets a ticket, can't afford to pay the civil penalties, gets suspended, then can't afford to pay whatever DMV wants to get his license reinstated, even if he is an otherwise decent driver.

[/tax rant off]

I also have to wonder about what officers are going to be forced to do.....

As in, "Officer Jones, I'm noticing you haven't written any citations that fall under the new 'safety plan' yet....why is that?"

Officer Jones: "Because I haven't seen any violations that I felt warranted those citations."

"Well, I suggest you go find some."

Can you potentially see a situation where Virginia LEOs are "graded" based on the revenue they produce? Seeing as how these fines are supposed to "fund" the idiotic transportation plan, I can see a potential scenario where at least State Police officers are directed to generate as much revenue as possible....

That wouldn't go over well with them OR with the citizenry.

[trio]

respectfully, although I dont particularly like the law, I foresee no Constitutional issues with it...

The Eighth Amendment is not applicable in this particular instance because it is not a criminal fine imposed....this is very specifically a civil penalty imposed for violation of the terms and conditions of a state issued license...The Eighth Amendment is pretty much applicable for bail (obviously) and for sentences for crimes...this law does not impose further sentences for crimes....it imposes civil penalties...In fact, I was in Circuit Court on Monday and, while waiting, listened to the Clerk explain over the phone how the Courts will not even be in charge of enforcing these new fines, the DMV will (which makes total sense, as the issuing authority of the license, see below)

Put simply, restaurant owners can have fines imposed on their restaurant license if they fail to maintain certain health code standards...the state issues the licenses, and has civil means for enforcing the terms of that license...

This, really, is no different...and is quite separate from the criminal fines imposed....to take the above example one step further...if the Virginia State legislature were to pass laws that made it criminal for restauranteers to violate health codes, they could face criminal fines and sanctions for breaking that law, in addition to any civil penalties for breaking the terms of their license...

Put in yet another way, you have essentially entered into a contract with the State for your driver's license, and these new fines represent a penalty they are imposing for breaches you have made of an implied promise of that contract (ie., that in return for their issuing you a motor vehicle license, you will not abuse that privilege, and will operate your vehicle in a safe manner)....



As far as the equal protection issues (14th Amendment) and the Privileges and Immunities issues, they also do not apply here....a state is ABSOLUTELTY within its right to make laws that only apply to its citizenry, and do not apply to citizens of other states...

Equal protection issues (and P&I issues) arise when a state discriminates against residents of another state in order to grant an advantage for its own residents....

For example, if Virginia were to apply a road tax on truckers not based in Virginia, while not forcing in state truckers to pay that tax...that would cause issues...

But that is not what is going on here...

Furthermore a state cannot deny Privileges and Immunities to residents of another state...again, not going on here....

States create laws that apply only to their citizenry all the time....so long as those laws do not create a discriminatory effect against out of state residents, they are most likely fine....

This law, as far as I can see, does none of that...

Of course, there are many Constitutional scholars out there much smarter than I am, but I am betting a lot of them work for both the General Assembly and the State's Attorney General, both who likely had a hand in making sure this law didn't run afoul of the US Constitution....

it doesnt mean it doesnt suck though

[Bonk2029]

I also have to wonder about what officers are going to be forced to do.....

As in, "Officer Jones, I'm noticing you haven't written any citations that fall under the new 'safety plan' yet....why is that?"

Officer Jones: "Because I haven't seen any violations that I felt warranted those citations."

"Well, I suggest you go find some."

That wouldn't go over well with them OR with the citizenry.

I'll tell you right now it doesn't work that way at my PD, we'd damn near have a mutiny if it did. Ticket quotas are illegal (after some Georgia case whose name escapes me), and localities only get a certain percentage of money generated by tickets, which is capped after a certain point.

[Dport]

trio,
A court could rule that this "civil" charge is indeed a defacto form of punishment.

[trio]

perhaps....

but if you look at the Eighth Amendment case law, there is no way(IMO) that a 3500 fine for a DUI is going to be considered excessive....the excessive fines and punishments generally litigated and heard under this clause involve things so extreme as to shock the conscious (like giving the death penalty for something like cashing a $100 check on a closed account...you laugh, thats actually one of the cases)....it is way unlikely that these fines would be close to being considered grossly disproportional under the "gross disproportionality principle"...by comparison...possession of 650 GRAMS of cocaine receiving a life sentence WITHOUT parole was NOT held to be grossly disproportional by the USSC....

I dont see how, given this precedent, an additional 3-4 thousand bucks is going to even make the courts blink....

Having said all that, I still stand by my original premise that the state's first argument would be that it was simply imposing a fine for violating the terms of a license it issues you...

it ALREADY does this.....people just dont equate it in the same way....

if you get too many tickets, and get too many "points" the state suspends your license...this is NOT part of the criminal punishment for the infractions you commit....not at all...rather it is a civil penalty that comes with the license....if you abuse your license too many times, the state tracks it, and after a certain number of abuses, suspends it...

These fines are an extension of that type of system....the DMV is penalizing you monetarily for abusing your license to operate a motor vehicle....they could have done it in another way...they could have made you pay a fee every year for carrying a certain number of points on your license....

I think that is what the state would stand up and argue if forced to make that argument in court....

[John_Wayne777]

I'll tell you right now it doesn't work that way at my PD, we'd damn near have a mutiny if it did. Ticket quotas are illegal (after some Georgia case whose name escapes me), and localities only get a certain percentage of money generated by tickets, which is capped after a certain point.

Of course quotas are illegal....

But at the same time officers who work patrol are often "expected" to bring in a certain amount of citations....otherwise who knows if they aren't just driving around, right?

[Nathan_Bell]

Of course quotas are illegal....

But at the same time officers who work patrol are often "expected" to bring in a certain amount of citations....otherwise who knows if they aren't just driving around, right?

Well conviction rate is what the superiors want to see, and a traffic violation is a misdemeanor conviction. So to keep the superiors happy and keep advancing are you going to spend 8 hours patrolling and working to improve safety in you AO, or are you going to set up shop at a good corner and write them speeding tickets? This is why my cousin is no longer a WV state trooper, I am assuming that it is that way in other states as well.