M855A1 presentation lists improvements over M855

[DocGKR]

Yes.

M855A1 EPR is an ATK/Lake City design, while Mk318 Mod0 is an ATK/Federal Cartridge design.

[Zhukov]

Do not bother, people. This stuff is the epitomy of weak-sauce. If you're gonna blow money on new ammo the military is using, spend it on the Mk318.

Doc, I keep looking for somebody to bring up how much that stupid hippie abortion costs compared to what amounts to only incremental improvement (if that's what one wants to call it) in only a couple of areas. Somehow that never seems to make it into the briefs. "I am Jacks complete lack of surprise."

Having a round that sorta matches M855 external ballistics and saying it will have no impact on training the warfighter is utter crap, from the standpoint of already not letting them shoot enough due to professed (also BS, somebody just thinks that saving the time and money on putting the poor schlubs through Sexual Harassment briefings is of greater value on deployments) time/cost/range space limitations. If it's already too costly to let them shoot to the point of actual competence, just how is making the ammo 2x the cost NOT going to impact training? The thing can match current issue 62gr ammo as much as it wants to, it's no help when they have trouble hitting Oprah in the ass with what's already in the inventory.

Slide 13's admonition about nothing replacing training is the PPT version of a politician's campaign slogan. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Yet another example of a material solution to a training issue, on top of having far too much concern for keeping the spotted-dick owl safe in lieu of doing a better job of perforating Mr. I Hate America and his Brother Youseff. Gadzooks, I hope the Corps doesn't buy any more of this garbage than what they did for the study....

Holy crap - your assessment makes so much sense that the only people who can't see it are apparently the higher-ups in the procurement chain. That borders on virtually criminal stupidity to make the ammo more expensive when the troops aren't getting the trigger time they need.

That's a sad commentary on how the military is doing things.

[200RNL]

Why go with 1940's technology AP, when modern, better performing AP loads like M993 and M995 are available?

I didn't know that those rounds were more effective than .30 M2 AP.

I would also feel more comfortable with 7.62x51 AP but I know that AP is scarce in that caliber.

If modern M993 and M995 is that good, imagine what they could do with a new 7.62 AP round.

[DocGKR]

M993 = current issue 7.62x51mm AP

M995 = current issue 5.56 mm AP

[200RNL]

M993 = current issue 7.62x51mm AP

Just looked M993 up and it looks good. Same design as M995.

Didn't see any comparisons with M2 AP.

From what I have read, M2 AP was the most commonly issued round for riflemen in the European theater, not because of the use of body armor, but due to the widespread use of vehicles on the battlefields.

M995 may suffice for now, but advances in body armor may force a reintroduction of a full power AP round and a rifle to fire it. History repeats itself.

[TehLlama]

More expensive than Mk262? How would this compare against 6.8 .


Everything about that .ppt looks like a well polished turd - I can put 80% of M855 rounds on an 8"x8" plate at 550yd from the prone - that hardly defines match accuracy. I don't see any claims at this improving soft tissue performance, only that this addresses intermediate barrier penetration and a lead-free projectile requirement.
DocR's explanation and model of employing a quality small wars oriented round makes tons of sense, and M995 makes tons more sense as a stockpile/NATO round. Brand shouldn't be as relevant as it is, my buddies in Marjeh are telling me that Mk318 is plenty accurate.

Mk318 is working. It's cheaper. We're engaged in COIN operations. It is the better choice.

Enjoy your ACU's and M855A1!

[BrianS]

This has nothing to do with environmentalists...

What does it have to do with then? Reason I ask is I have read several bizarre statements about the M855A1 touting it's leadfree construction as one of it's prime selling points. I am wondering if that is really driving the train or if it is something else and these statements are just the Army trying to play public relations.

Thanks.

[Shawn Dodson]

I conjecture the bullet yaws and fragments in soft tissues because otherwise the Army could simply general-issue M995 armor-piercing ammo for a lot less cost, and achieve the same performance.

The bullet is comprised of three parts: 1) copper-tin base core, 2) steel penetrator tip, and 3) gilding metal (copper-zinc alloy) jacket. Given that it fragments into two main pieces after penetrating windshield glass indicates to me that the copper-tin core is unlikely to fragment in soft tissues. It appears to me that, when penetrating soft tissues, the bullet yaws and *consistently* fragments into two main pieces - steel tip and jacket/core, similar to how M193/M855 merely fragments into two pieces in soft tissues at lower velocities. (The jacket may separate from the core and/or fragment, but this is probably an inconsistent result.) At close distance the temporary cavity may tear open the diverging permanent cavities produced by the tip and core, increasing permanent disruption. At longer distances wounding effects are probably very similar, if not identical to M193/M855 at longer distance.

[Unicorn]

What does it have to do with then? Reason I ask is I have read several bizarre statements about the M855A1 touting it's leadfree construction as one of it's prime selling points. I am wondering if that is really driving the train or if it is something else and these statements are just the Army trying to play public relations.

Thanks.

I hope that it was somebody have an actual good idea. To try and get a better round approved, having it sound environmentally friendly to offset the higher cost.

[Todd.K]

To try and get a better round approved, having it sound environmentally friendly to offset the higher cost.

Replacing "better round" with "bigger budget" is probably closer to the truth.

We have lead free RRLP that could have been saving the ranges from lead for the last decade.