Question about open carry and probable cause for police questioning.

[NickB]

I remember talking to some Columbia, Missouri police officers about this very subject. This was during a police academy and they were guest instructors, a Capt and a Sgt IIRC.

Anyway, their read on it was that while it was legal in Missouri to carry openly, if you caused a disturbance they would arrest you for disturbing the peace. (To be honest I don't remember the exact charge, and I believe it was specific to that city rather than the state at large.)

The lesson from that was carry concealed where it is legal, and open carry only when it's socially appropriate. Columbia Missouri being a three college town, it was never socially appropriate.

"Officer, I didn't cause the disturbance...it was all the people yelling and screaming. Arrest them!"

Really, that doesn't make much sense to me. Isn't that akin to arresting the woman with a fur coat when the PETA activist spray paints it and makes a scene?

Boulder is also a college town, so that didn't help matters. Admittedly, I don't know any urban/suburban areas in this state where open carry is socially acceptable.

[Dport]

"Officer, I didn't cause the disturbance...it was all the people yelling and screaming. Arrest them!"

Really, that doesn't make much sense to me. Isn't that akin to arresting the woman with a fur coat when the PETA activist spray paints it and makes a scene?

Boulder is also a college town, so that didn't help matters. Admittedly, I don't know any urban/suburban areas in this state where open carry is socially acceptable.

It gets nuttier. There was a CCW vote in Missouri like a year later. It failed. Thanks to St. Louis County, Jackson County(Where KC is located.) and Boone County (Where Columbia is located). Ever other county in the state voted for it.

So a local gun store/gun range owner decided to protest by openly carrying. He was questioned by security in a local grocery store. I told him that I thought he was lucky because, based on my conversation with the police officers, he would have been arrested if the cops had been called. He said that's exactly what he wanted, but I don't recall him openly carrying after that.

[Pat_Rogers]

Pat - as a LEO, would there ever be reason to cite him for something like disturbing the peace? Something else?


It is also my understanding that the stop initiated from a 911 call. What type of call warrants further investigation, and what type of call does not? This call seems to be motivated by politics and/or ignorance of the law.

Would there be a reason to cite....?
I give up- would there? There are
too many what if's to make a coherent answer.

What type of call warrants further...
All of them. Geez Nick, consider this. You are a 911 operator. Someone calls in and you believe they are intox. You dump the call. Turns out they were diabetic and go DOA. You made a bad decision, and it was based on what??
So, all calls are investigated simply because those operators making not much more then starvation wages cannot- and should not- be permitted to send something to the round file on their own.
Certainly there are priorities- someone screaming, shots fired in the background; multiple calls about the same job etc.; but a cop goes to all of them (or at least all they are dispatched to, and have the manpower to cover.

Example- as a Patrol Supervisor i received a communication from the Boro in the form of a written complaint.
The complaint alleged that a person (named, apartment number etc) was building a submarine in his apartment.
Complainant alleged that he had several adjacent apartments, and he could hear metalwork, smell welding etc 24/7 at the apartment which BTW was on the 12th Floor of a nice building on 2nd Ave in the confines of the 13Pct.
Complainant further alleged that when police came to investigate they would close all of the secret compartments and turn on the ventilators.
When i knocked on the door, F/W 35 answered and stated "On no, did (insert name of complainant) make another one?? This is the 26th for this year".
They invited me in where i searched high and low for a submarine, without result.
The person alleged to be the Capt Nemo was a retired Marine Officer from the1930's, and it turned out i knew him when he was the manager of the 2nd Floor at Polks Hobby House on 5th Avenue in Manhattan in the late 1950's- a great American.
He was on his death's bed- literally- and some cuckoo bird was disturbing his last days on earth with stupidity.
I wrote a long memo to the boro about this, recommending that the writer be involuntarily removed to Bellevue etc.
I got hammered by the Bosses, and they told me that "We investigate everything, no matter how frivolous or stupid it may appear".

So, here is my take. Your buddy/ whatever wants to make a statement by carrying openly, no problem. But when someone calls 911 a cop or 5 will come. And depending on his attitude, what else has recently occured in the neighborhood and so forth, the cops will make a judgement call based on the input they receive from multiple sources.
And then he can whine or cry, or be on TV after the Grand Jury or lawsuits or whatever. Or, he may fit the 'scrip of someone who just raped a nun 3 blocks away, and then maybe something else happens.
People have to be responsible for their actions, and there are consequences for all of them.
But, no more what if's Nick. Thats all for me.

[John_Wayne777]

I apologize in advance for the long post.
Is a stop such as this voluntary for the individual being questioned, i.e. could have he refused to provide identification/walked away without consequence?

If somebody calls the cops in a hysterical panic reporting man with a gun, the police are going to investigate the call. They have to. Whenever they interact with anyone in an official capacity they are going to ask for ID. That's standard procedure.

It sounds to me like the police handled things in a professional manner and there's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Folks have to expect that the police might be called if they openly carry into a place with a hysterical idiot who freaks out at the sight of someone safely carrying a firearm. The world is full of idiots.

If you open carry be prepared to interact with the police about it....and be prepared to be *very nice* to the police officers and to cooperate with them in a polite and professional way.

They will usually appreciate it very much.

[John_Wayne777]

They invited me in where i searched high and low for a submarine, without result.

That's the best one I've heard yet!

You could have some fun with the report.....

"...found no submarine on the premises. Did, however, notice aircraft parts in several places, which could be assembled into a B-19. Recommend keeping a close eye on this location."

[NickB]

So a local gun store/gun range owner decided to protest by openly carrying. He was questioned by security in a local grocery store. I told him that I thought he was lucky because, based on my conversation with the police officers, he would have been arrested if the cops had been called. He said that's exactly what he wanted, but I don't recall him openly carrying after that.

Political activism can be an expensive hobby. At least the gun store owner knew the consequences and was prepared to accept them. The guy in my story was far more foolish, in my opinion, and should have seen this coming. Something I didn't think about that Pat mentioned is the impact of recent events on the situation. Pre-Virginia Tech, this might not have been an issue. Post-VT, it makes perfect sense that cops want to know what he's doing carrying a gun 0.25 miles from a large university.

[NickB]

If somebody calls the cops in a hysterical panic reporting man with a gun, the police are going to investigate the call. They have to. Whenever they interact with anyone in an official capacity they are going to ask for ID. That's standard procedure.

It sounds to me like the police handled things in a professional manner and there's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Folks have to expect that the police might be called if they openly carry into a place with a hysterical idiot who freaks out at the sight of someone safely carrying a firearm. The world is full of idiots.

If you open carry be prepared to interact with the police about it....and be prepared to be *very nice* to the police officers and to cooperate with them in a polite and professional way.

They will usually appreciate it very much.

It makes perfect sense to me, too, John - I guess a main point of this thread was to get more input from people who have real experience, as I do not. Pat has made the issue crystal clear. The bottom line, it appears, is that everything, no matter how asinine, is investigated, and priority is determined based on context. I thought certain calls would be ignored, but the submarine proved that that assumption wrong!

I’ve studied a bit of Constitutional law (not much), so these kinds of things always interest me. I enjoy seeing how behavior by civilians and law enforcement alike is reconciled through written and case law. It seems to me like this can be a gray area depending on circumstances. You’re not under arrest, but you’re not free to go. Like you say, I’ve always found polite behavior to work wonders.

Time to dust off some old law books…

[the1911fan]

Pat - as a LEO, would there ever be reason to cite him for something like disturbing the peace? Something else?

It is also my understanding that the stop initiated from a 911 call. What type of call warrants further investigation, and what type of call does not? This call seems to be motivated by politics and/or ignorance of the law. What if we use the same complaint scenario with a more commonplace activity? What if I call 911 and tell them I think some construction workers might be illegal? What if I report someone talking a cell phone that might be stolen, or using software that might be pirated? Those scenarios have no less legal justification for further investigation than an individual with a holstered firearm, but I bet they would be ignored as a waste of resources. My gut tells me the word "gun" changes the call priority dramatically regardless of context.

Illegal construction workers at a construction site.....A possible stolen cell phone.....pirated software.... none would be immediately identifiable or scare the average city liberal or college town liberal. I work in a Metro area and IMO cops that open carry off duty are knobs (just like regular non LE folk that open carry IMO)...most dept.'s around my area require concealed carry when off duty...and thank goodness they do.

If you are LEO in the rural areas and open carry is normal that is what you do I reckon.

[NickB]

Illegal construction workers at a construction site.....A possible stolen cell phone.....pirated software.... none would be immediately identifiable or scare the average city liberal or college town liberal. I work in a Metro area and IMO cops that open carry off duty are knobs (just like regular non LE folk that open carry IMO)...most dept.'s around my area require concealed carry when off duty...and thank goodness they do.

LMAO! Great post - you just made me spit out some coffee!

[DrMark]

As has been mentioned, the reaction is often very area-dependent.

In Virginia, for example, pre-1995 a CHL holder could carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. Post-1995, the anti-gunners got that changed.

As a result, folks who carry a gun for protection must un-conceal when they enter a restaurant that serves alcohol. I have dined with some of these folks, and seen many others. (I saw one last week.) I doubt many of them were open carrying to make a point, but simply to comply with the law.

Usually there's little notice given to them. Once in a while the cops are called, the cops will show up, see that there's no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, and leave. Sometimes the cops will professionally discuss the incident with the carrier and be on their way. Once in a while the cops will unprofessionally put their personal feeling above the law when discussing the incident with the carrier.

On the whole, however, I'd say that Virginia is getting more used to open carry.