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Thread: Let's Talk about Light Primer Strikes...

  1. #11
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    While this has nothing to do with FTF and light strikes, maybe it will drive home the practice of tossing a round that has been chambered a few times.

    The round on the left was chambered several times until it just didn't feel right. When I unloaded it I was very thankful I didn't fire this round.

    While this maybe attributed to a bad crimp as the one on the right didn't require much force to set the bullet back, it still tells me that repeatedly chambering a single round is not good. It also told me I need to shoot more.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart View Post
    UVvis,

    I believe the discussion pertains to repeated chambering resulting in light strikes that eventually render a primer dead. I can see if enough light primer strikes occur that eventually when you yank on the trigger with the intent to fire off the round, the dimple in the primer could have got deep enough that the energy transferred is insufficient to detonate the primer. In effect, a Type 1 malfunction.

    .


    This is EXACTLY the case. I am sorry that I was unaware that a "light primer strike" was considered to be something else.
    jmart's quote above, is DEAD ON.
    Each year, when everyone in the area starts BOOMING off fireworks, I break out my own fireworks (my M4), and I'm able to sneak in a few rounds without "disturbing the peace". However, when I pulled the trigger, the 75gr TAP round did NOT go off. Instead, I got the sound of a dry-fire.
    This was due to the fact that this first round in my mag, had been chambered (and re-chambered) a few times in the last few weeks, hence the "FTF".


    I feel I DO have an issue here (as does everyone else with a floating firing pin).
    I mean, WHY the hell do I want to have to worry about keeping track of how many times a round has been chambered?
    I realize many of you are quick to jump up and defend the black rifles shortcomings, (as am I as well!), however, I just personally consider this a shortcoming.
    Just because a "shortcoming" can be overcome with careful inspection/observation, does not mean such issue is no longer a "shortcoming".
    I love the black rifle as much as ANYONE here, I just hate the fact that my first round is going to FTF on me, just because I chambered/de-chambered it a few times...
    I think Pat Rogers has the best/most reliable cure for the situation. NEVER chamber/de-chamber a round more than ONCE...
    Again, I love the black rifle as much as anyone here, and I CERTAINLY don't want to start a flame war here...
    I appreciate EVERY one of you guys' opinions, and all that you guys have contributed...

  3. #13
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    Paul- take a deep breath

    This is not a rifle design shortcoming- it is an operator shortcoming.
    Strongly suggest before you make anymore statements not supported by fact or incorrect as to cause/ effect you get a clear understanding as to how the system works. Dean Caputo's class is a good place to learn.
    The floating firing pin is common in many weapons sytems, including 1911, M1, M14 and so on.
    It is not a problem.
    I have never observed a primed case cease functioning because it had been chambered multiple times.
    I have seen pressure spikes and issues possibly related to powder contamination.
    This may be a bad primer, or other issues, but before you continue to make illogical statements you either have proof or at least a working knowledge of the gun.
    I have no idea why you continue to load / unload the same round multiple times, but it is a bad practice.
    You do not have to count this more than once- anything more has the potential to be a problem.
    I strongly hope that when you firse those shots you have a safe backstop and are doing it legally and ethically.

    How is that?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat_Rogers View Post
    Paul- take a deep breath

    I have never observed a primed case cease functioning because it had been chambered multiple times.

    Well I have. Just last night, and about 3 months ago it happed as well. Two totally seperate lots of TAP FPD. Two exact same scenarios.
    Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but I've known of many people who have had this problem/issue/situation? (for lack of a better term to suit everyone here).
    I am not in any way questioning your expertise Mr Rogers, and I never will, but ALL I am saying is that I have had multiple rounds (of QUALITY ammo, from several different milspec M4's), FAIL TO FIRE, after being chambered xx number of times. I would venture to say I've personally had this happen 4-5 times total, in my personal experience. The last two times it has happened, I have saved the 75gr TAP rounds. One of those rounds is sitting here in my peripheral vision now, as I type. The other is floating around here somewhere I think.
    I will agree that it can be prevented by taking your own advice above (by making sure NOT to chamber/dechamber a round more than once).

    Regardless of what the exact science is behind it, the bottom line is that these continued strikes on the primer by the floating FP, eventually caused the FTF. Am I wrong here? Are you saying these were mere "duds" from the factory, and it was just extreme coincidence that it happened each time, to the round that had been chambered/dechambered multiple times???
    I mean no argumentative insult here by any means. Just trying to learn a thing or two.
    I thought I had previously learned that repeated chambering of a round in the AR15, can AND WILL eventually cause FTF's...
    This is something I THOUGHT I had learned on this forum, but maybe I am badly mistaken..?? I was fairly certain though.
    I am not sure what we are debating (are we even debating?).

    Pat Rogers wrote: "I strongly hope that when you firse those shots you have a safe backstop "

    How about mother EARTH for a backstop?
    No idea why you would mention it, but I would NEVER in my lifetime even CONSIDER shooting illegally, let alone, unsafely.
    It's 100% legal to shoot where said event took place. There are simply a few neighbors (and their horses), up the road that get disturbed by the noise sometimes, so we take it upon ourselves (out of simple courtesy), to limit our shooting to the weekends during daylight hours.
    However, I "sneak" a few rounds down range, when the heavy fireworks start sounding off each year.
    Now- how is that?

    Again, this is not an attempt to question your expertise. More like question my understanding of your expertise...

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWR View Post
    While this maybe attributed to a bad crimp as the one on the right didn't require much force to set the bullet back, it still tells me that repeatedly chambering a single round is not good. It also told me I need to shoot more.
    Crimp is usually not the problem, but instead the hollow point is catching on something as it is being chambered. I went through this with a .45ACP Colt a few years ago and I thought it was an inadequate crimp too.

    It's possible every single round of that shape and overall length is getting a little setback each time it chambers, or it might just happen when you cycle it by hand.

    Do you feel or hear a little "hitch" when it's going into battery when you cycle the first round by hand?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWR View Post
    While this has nothing to do with FTF and light strikes, maybe it will drive home the practice of tossing a round that has been chambered a few times.

    The round on the left was chambered several times until it just didn't feel right. When I unloaded it I was very thankful I didn't fire this round.

    While this maybe attributed to a bad crimp as the one on the right didn't require much force to set the bullet back, it still tells me that repeatedly chambering a single round is not good. It also told me I need to shoot more.
    Reloads or factory? Is that .357 Sig?

  7. #17
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    Those were factory win in 357 sig, I carry a Glock 32 and whatever the reason it got my attention. It seems to feed pretty smoothly but I have since switched ammo and shoot more often. I used to keep an extra mag loaded with practice ammo, now it's all the same. That round probably got chambered 100 times or more...operator error I know.

  8. #18
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    Paul- i am fortunate in that i get to see a lot of ammo of different makers go downrange every year.
    I see a great numbers of Type 1 Malfunctions. Most FTF are operator indiced (failure to chamber etc) but also see a great number of rounds that FTF. This includes Hornady, M855, WW and so foth.
    They make ammo by the millions- things happen. I stated this in my first post, specifically about Hornady.

    Your chambering of a single round may be a red herring. I stated- and will re state- that i have never seen rechambering a round be the sole cause of a primer failure, but can imagine that poor storage methods, WX and so forth could do it.

    However, you are blaming it on a free float firing pin, calling it a shortcoming.
    It isin't.
    You have bad luck, bad juju or bad training. Obfuscation doesn't help
    Stop rechambering rounds- that is a bad practice.
    Report back after you have fired 5-10k rds of your ammunition and advise if you have similar problems.
    You may have a bad gun, bad parts, bad cleaning etc.
    But learn your gun...

  9. #19
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    Paul and Jmart, Thanks for the clarification. I was getting a little lost, and my reading comprehension is down from pushing paper for the last two weeks.


    Paul,

    How many chamberings are we talking about? I'm thinking that you might have some other issue, maybe bad primers on your ammo, or a damaged firing pin. Have you ever popped a primer that you know of, and can you compare your firing pin to a new or known good pin? Have you tried the duds in a different gun?

  10. #20
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    Does this ammo that you've been using have sealed primers?

    Chambering a round on a lubed bolt, and then leaving it in the chamber, or not wiping it off may allow lube to penetrate the primer pocket(over a time period) and deactivate the round.

    It may have nothing whatever to do with the firing pin.

    However, if you do want a spring-loaded firing pin, you might look into trying to find one of those $5000 HK 416 uppers that made it into the states. They have a spring loaded firing pin and piston operation too. Not that I'd recommend either of those things personally, but you can get them with the HK if for some reason you'd want things like that.

    The spring loaded firing pin doesn't do a thing for you, but it sets worried people's minds at ease.

    Also, I fully concur with not repeatedly re-chambering a round.

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