Red Dot Sights - if Green is so good...

[ra2bach]

Not sure that's a great idea. I watched one of those little gems go tits-up after an hour of hard use last weekend in a Magpul class. It became a two then a four-dot red/green sight.

not a problem. my only purpose in getting it is to determine which color dot I prefer.

if it survives the first round of decision making, it's going on a .22LR upper and I'll be purchasing a TR24 in that color.

if it doesn't, well, that's what the 800# is for...

[Failure2Stop]

Red stands out the most from an average background than other colors to the average person. Occurences of red in nature is less than other "normal" colors, and thus less likely to get lost in the background.

The human eye can distinguish more shades of green than any other color. A properly selected green (such as Trijicon has done) will be pretty obvious.

The ACOG line is really where this discussion comes from (or at least in my circles it is), and is more a result of the illumination of the reticle. The red reticles tend to blur badly if the entire fiberoptic cable is exposed to light, so we obscure a large portion of the cable to sharpen the reticle. The tritium is insufficient to bring the reticle (esp the chevron) to usable brightness when using a light or in transitionary lighting conditions. The green reticle (esp the horseshoe dot) doesn't bloom quite as badly and seems to respond better (though still not optimally) to low-level tritium immumination: note the preponderance to green vials for handgun front sights and the absence of red vials for that application.

[ra2bach]

thanks F2S, excellent explanation and it really got me thinking...

I understand the tendency for red to bloom when overexposed. this is easy to illustrate with an Aimpoint. and I think I am beginning to understand that green is a better choice for use with the tritium in lower lighting situations. am I tracking?

I see you referenced the Acog but I'm interested in the TR24 which only offers the triangle post or G#4 with center dot, in either red, amber, or green.

question - regarding the reticle choices (2), and the color choices (3) - are there any generalities that can be made for which intended uses the different combinations would be best at?

for instance, my intended use is for a general purpose rifle - call this rifle a Recce if it helps to visualize... I'm looking for daytime range use, with emphasis on good hits from CQB range out to 400 yds. I realize this will not be a target rifle with this optic regardless of reticle but I want the ability to make "good hits" on man-size targets. I would also want the ability to make hits at extended ranges (100-200 yds) in low light, and maybe CQB in total darkness with a white light attached, if necessary.

I accept that there will be compromises and this is not my primary for HD, for which I have an Aimpoint setup on a short, lightweight middy with white light attached.

[Failure2Stop]

Sorry, I do not have sufficient experience with the different reticles/colors in the TR24 to make a recommendation one way or the other. The only one I handled was indoors, well lit, and was a red triangle/post and it didn't really tickle my fancy.

[ra2bach]

Sorry, I do not have sufficient experience with the different reticles/colors in the TR24 to make a recommendation one way or the other. The only one I handled was indoors, well lit, and was a red triangle/post and it didn't really tickle my fancy.

not a problem you've already helped quite a bit, thanks.

and there's been tons of discussion on this, not just here. trying to boil this down, what I come up with is:

Triangle is quicker, G#4 is more precise.

Green is better when lit by tritium and possibly fiber optic. Red is almost too strong in bright light unless the FO tube is partially obscured, and not as receptive to being lit by tritium.

my problem, at least with FO handgun sights that I've used, is that in bright outdoors light I don't seem to pick up the green sights as easily as the red. in low light, I just use the standard 6 o'clock hold.

this may not be an accurate comparison but it's all I got to go on now. it may be I have low ability to resolve green and I won't know until I can compare them side by side. I'd like to hear other people's experiences before I swipe the card...

[F.C.III]

I am in the same boat on the TR24. I know I want the triangle but can't decide between red and green. I have yet to locate a green one to tinker with. I have handled the red and it is very bright and easily noticed in full sun. I know green is supposed to be "the one to get" but I sure would like to know how quick it is to pick up in foliage of diff.shades of green. As for the red and green does either work better under a weapon light's illum. I have read all the other threads and am in worst shape than before I looked at them.

[mkmckinley]

I wonder if Trijicon went with green because that color of tritium is the brightest. It seems like there would be an advantage to using green in a tritium powered optic.

[Gutshot John]

The human eye can distinguish more shades of green than any other color. A properly selected green (such as Trijicon has done) will be pretty obvious.

While the first sentence is certainly correct it doesn't necessarily follow that the second is true. First some people's eyes are more sensitive to green than others, women for instance tend to be able to identify far more shades of all colors than men. Second while it may be somewhat counterintuitive but being able to see many shades of green might be a disadvantage unless there is clear contrasts between one green and another, if the shades are fairly similar you're going to have problems.

As an example many of you were given color vision tests at MEPS. I failed the first one I was given the PiP (various shades of dots that reveal a number or letter) but am in no way color blind I just couldn't distinguish the shades because they were so similar. It apparently happens with enough frequency that they back it up with the Lantern Test. Same concept applies.

note the preponderance to green vials for handgun front sights and the absence of red vials for that application.

My understanding was that since you're talking about a tritium night sight, green is the preferred since that's the color you can see easiest in low/night light conditions.

In my experience most FO sights tend to be red for the exact opposite reason.

[Failure2Stop]

While the first sentence is certainly correct it doesn't necessarily follow that the second is true. First some people's eyes are more sensitive to green than others, women for instance tend to be able to identify far more shades of all colors than men. Second while it may be somewhat counterintuitive but being able to see many shades of green might be a disadvantage unless there is clear contrasts between one green and another, if the shades are fairly similar you're going to have problems.

It isn't that the human eye can "see" more colors of green (there is no "infra-green" outside the human visible color spectrum), it can differentiate many more shades of green than any other color. Now, I agree, that does not mean that everyone has the same differention ability, so simply saying that any green reticle is a good choice would be highly questionable. A bright green stands out pretty well in most backgrounds, since bright greens in nature are normally seen when looking skyward when in a forrest they stand out well when superimposed on a darker background. So do properly selected reds. I am not suggesting that red is inferior with regard to standing out from the background.

My understanding was that since you're talking about a tritium night sight, green is the preferred since that's the color you can see easiest in low/night light conditions.

Maybe it has been my observation since my experience is based on tritium illuminated sights and reticles. In my experience, with equally "powered" vials (I cannot recall what measurement they use to denote the levels of tritium) green is the brightest, followed by yellow, orange, red, and finally blue. I do not remember looking at other colors, but I don't think purple/violet would be much of a difference than red or blue.

It could be that the bright green is more obvious with dark-adjusted vision, simply a function of the tritium illumination, or some combination of the two.

In my experience most FO sights tend to be red for the exact opposite reason.

I believe that the FO preponderance for reds and oranges because they stand out more from the blue/white sky as well as most ground level environments than other colors, especially when illuminated. I don't know why, but it seems to me that red is more susceptable than green to blurring/blooming, requiring a finer illumination adjustment capability to properly resolve the reticle.

Overall, reticle color is a balance between standing out from the background and target and (depending on application) the ability to quickly resolve details of the reticle/sight. I am not convinced that green reticles are the answer for every optic, application, or person. What I do find is that when it comes to the ACOG line or front inserts for iron sights, most prefer the green that trijicon uses.

I am not being argumentative, simply clarifying my points and observation.

There isn't much that is more subjective and variable than vision, and individual experience and preference is going to influence perception further still. I do my best to be objective, but we are all results of our past experiences.

[payj]

Don't know all of the details on the pics, but here ya go. Hope it helps a little?







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