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Thread: Heavier spring or heavier buffer: which is better?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    =========================
    MarkM,
    That's my understanding.

    A quality AR maker's rep told me this past Wednesday, that the slower the BCG moves the better, (Which is still going to be pretty fast) and the Buffer controls the speed. He said a heavy spring has no place in a functioning gun, especially a factory "tuned" one.

    He told me they got a gun back last month under warranty that the guy claimed wasn't reliable. Once the gun is in the shop, they see a heavier spring was installed. They call and confront the guy and he says, "It is a "better" spring than the one that was in the gun!" They asked him if the gun worked with the original spring and tells them, "Yes, it worked fine but this is a better spring!". Oh well...

    I couldn't do that job. I'd have to say, "Well then go ahead and use the "better" spring but just get used to your gun failing...stupid!"

    .
    Yep it's funny. Lots of people mention 'mil-spec' a lot for this or that but then use springs which have no known mil-spec......
    Mil-spec buffer springs have a minimum and maximum length for rifle length and CAR length springs which is in the USMC technical manuals. I've yet to see where aftermarket extra power so-called better springs have such specs for length.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
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  2. #12
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    Gentlemen (Markm, Gotm4),

    With all due respect, I must differ with you on this issue.

    Ten years ago, if we all started to talk about tinkering with buffer weights (how many times did I hear, "Who the hell needs an H buffer?!?!"), we would have been swiftly voted off the island. Recommending the use of H2 and H3 buffers would have gained us much ridicule.

    I have several friends who run their own regional short track racing team (mostly using ~350ci smallblocks w/ 4-barrel Holley carbs). They build their own engines...and wreck their own cars. A LOT of progress has been made in spring construction in the last 40 years. Even these rednecks (technically, I would fall into this social strata as well) have seen fit to upgrade their valve springs to chrome silicon springs. They now only have to replace the valve springs every other rebuild (and not because they have to). Before, they had serious problems with valve float at the engines' at redline (most tracks they RL at about 7100-7300 rpm). They were running 'uprated' conventional steel springs but still had to replace them about every race or else they would risk watching a connecting rod take a stroll down the backstraight. Since upgrading, valve float has been a non issue and spring life has increased exponentially. Do they know why this is? Nope. They are rednecks....but they'll cut off their members with a rusty butter knife before they switch back to the old valve springs.

    As for using up-rated springs in the AR (or ANY semi auto rifle), I think there may be merit. I have had VERY good luck tinkering in this area with benefits in smoothness and no detriment to reliability. Just as the H2 or H3 buffer may hurt reliability in someone's rifle as much as it may help another's, so too may a spring of different specification.

    I'm not saying who's right or wrong...I'm saying we don't know yet.....and there is so much to learn about how spring strength and buffer weight interact in the AR system. With new bolt carrier coatings further throwing a wrench into the mix by changing the internal friction of the system (In a linear or non-linear fashion, only God knows). I think that our effort in this area is to reduce the force that the BCG and buffer impart on the rear of the RE? In my mind, it seems this is simply the age-old discussion of heavy-slow or light-fast.

    I guess my only request is this: can we agree to disagree that there is benefit to tinkering with springs?

    I have had great results with using heavier CS springs....just the same it may DESTROY the reliability of another's perfectly running rig. I know that both of you have seen detrimental effects from using non-spec, aftermarket springs and I believe every word of the horror stories you've told.

    I'm an LEO and have zero background in the science or math in this area of study. I'm not an engineer. I am not an armorer. I'm just an average guy who is curious.

    Please don't take this as a challenge, Markm and Gotm4, as my knowledge is inferior to yours. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible about the system.

  3. #13
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    Point taken.

    I don't know if you read the article in SWAT magazine by Pat Rogers (titled Filthy 14) where he used a BCM midength to 31K rounds with standard CAR length buffer springs and a H buffer, the rifle was used by students in a training environment. Rifle was cleaned twice IIRC during this whole time, BCG changed out once when a bolt broke at 14K something rounds. The rifle shoots 2" at 50yds using an Aimpoint.

    Would it have run better with an aftermarket spring? I don't know but 31K is pretty friggin' impressive.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    Point taken.

    I don't know if you read the article in SWAT magazine by Pat Rogers (titled Filthy 14) where he used a BCM midength to 31K rounds with standard CAR length buffer springs and a H buffer, the rifle was used by students in a training environment. Rifle was cleaned twice IIRC during this whole time, BCG changed out once when a bolt broke at 14K something rounds. The rifle shoots 2" at 50yds using an Aimpoint.

    Would it have run better with an aftermarket spring? I don't know but 31K is pretty friggin' impressive.
    I heard about it here a while back...is it on the news stands? I would LOVE to read that. Results do speak for themselves....

    EDIT: I'm looking on SWAT magazine's website through Sep-2010 and don't see an article of that title. Is it in the Oct-2010 issue? I'm gonna keep looking....
    Last edited by BufordTJustice; 09-26-10 at 19:06.

  5. #15
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    No reason to run a stiffer buffer spring the engineers didn't pull that spring rate out of thin air. Now after saying that I do run a CS sprinco blue standard rate spring with an H-buffer. The CS will have longer life nothing more. The SS will not rust a good thing IMHO for a service rifle that may or may not get good PM.

    This debate reminds me racing just because you FEEL a difference does not mean you have actually have an improvement dyno testing with your butt will not give you good result in the end.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

    EDIT: I'm looking on SWAT magazine's website through Sep-2010 and don't see an article of that title. Is it in the Oct-2010 issue? I'm gonna keep looking....
    I just read it about 2 weeks ago (borrowed the issue from a friend and gave it back).
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I just read it about 2 weeks ago (borrowed the issue from a friend and gave it back).
    t26.

    I don't see it through September, so I'll look for the Oct issue. Thank you for the heads-up, sir.
    Last edited by BufordTJustice; 09-26-10 at 20:51.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    I have several friends who run their own regional short track racing team (mostly using ~350ci smallblocks w/ 4-barrel Holley carbs). They build their own engines...and wreck their own cars. A LOT of progress has been made in spring construction in the last 40 years. Even these rednecks (technically, I would fall into this social strata as well) have seen fit to upgrade their valve springs to chrome silicon springs. They now only have to replace the valve springs every other rebuild (and not because they have to). Before, they had serious problems with valve float at the engines' at redline (most tracks they RL at about 7100-7300 rpm). They were running 'uprated' conventional steel springs but still had to replace them about every race or else they would risk watching a connecting rod take a stroll down the backstraight. Since upgrading, valve float has been a non issue and spring life has increased exponentially. Do they know why this is? Nope. They are rednecks....but they'll cut off their members with a rusty butter knife before they switch back to the old valve springs.
    CS springs are rated for higher temps than music wire, and so have a benefit in something as hot as a racing engine - that is what ASTM A877 is - valve spring wire. This is not the same application as the buffer spring in an AR, which never sees temps over 160 F (even if left in the dash of your military vehicle in the desert). There are premium carbon wires, such as Mt Joy Rocket Wire, which are better for gun springs than CS wire.

    Flat-wire buffer springs are not better or even as good as a round-wire spring because the OD and ID is confined by the buffer and tube, so they are only flat due to missing material on the leading and trailing edge. This results in more stress. I predict earlier failure and possible spring breakage. The USGI spring is the correct and best spring for the AR buffer. Yes, they got it right 40+ years ago.

    Same goes for extra-power extractor springs. HD extractor spring == sooner failure. This is very easy to prove with spring simulation software.
    Last edited by rsilvers; 09-26-10 at 22:34.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    I heard about it here a while back...is it on the news stands? I would LOVE to read that. Results do speak for themselves....

    EDIT: I'm looking on SWAT magazine's website through Sep-2010 and don't see an article of that title. Is it in the Oct-2010 issue? I'm gonna keep looking....
    ======================

    It is the October issue.

    .

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    ======================

    It is the October issue.

    .
    Gotcha. Thank you.

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