"less lethal" as part of your daily carry?

[WillBrink]

As I'm sure is the case for most M4c posters, it's rare for me to not CCW daily. However, I'm inconsistent with less lethal (e.g. OC, etc) and had a situation where the less lethal option would have been perhaps the right option for that situation.

It was clearly not a lethal threat, but I had no interest in going hands on, and was lucky I didn't have to. It did remind me however that I wished I had an option between them at the time.

It's always a balancing act between what you wearing, and what you are willing to carry around. On the far end, you end up with a Batman belt that looks like a duty belt.

What % of you have some less lethal option as part of your daily CCW and what are your feelings on less lethal options in general?

[ST911]

What % of you have some less lethal option as part of your daily CCW and what are your feelings on less lethal options in general?

OC here, EDC is an ASP key defender. Other small containers are placed where accessible and needed. The key defender takes up little more space than my keys alone, and aids in orienting and organizing stuff in my pockets.

I've had far more need for OC than firearms.

[John_Wayne777]

I carry a small, concealable canister of Fox Labs everywhere I go. I usually keep a 3 oz. canister of the same within reach in a bag.

As for my feelings on it, generally I try and avoid stupidity so that I don't have to use any sort of weapon. If, however, I encounter someone who just wants to beat me up, I would rather have them attempt to do that while suffering a good dose of liquid pain. Tomorrow, for instance, I have to go deal with a ritual trespasser who is causing some problems. If he shows (probably will) my plan is to politely inform him that he doesn't have a right to trespass and then to let the local constabulary deal with him if he doesn't take the hint. If he decides he wants to resort to physical violence, I'm going to be prepared to whip out Fox's finest brew to dissuade him from such a foolish course of action.

[Irish]

3 of the most eloquent posters are already involved in this thread who I'm guessing know more about the subject than I do so I'm hoping to learn a little. I recently bought a small can of Sabre Red hoping the wifey will at least keep it in her car as she won't get qual'ed and carry a concealed firearm. She enjoys shooting and keeps a gun with her in the house but won't be bothered with the everyday change of wardrobe, weapon weight, etc. that plagues a lot of "fashionable" women.

Gents if you don't mind what are the acceptable/lawful reasons for deploying OC? I don't mean every minor detail but how do you determine when it's permissable? If you "sense" a threat from someone? When physical altercation is imminent but there is no need for a deadly use of force? I know there's probably not an end all be all due to different state laws but I'm trying to get a general sense of what would constitute a "good reason" so that the victim wouldn't be going to jail with the bad guy.

I've been in several situations where I would've liked to have OC with me, there's a lot of pricks in Vegas, but I'm not sure when the right time to deploy it is and I'm looking for advice to give my wife as well.

[John_Wayne777]

Stating up front that I'm not a legal expert and that I live in a totally different state....

I would consider using OC in any situation where I would otherwise contemplate laying hands on someone. If someone takes a swing at me, for instance, my alternatives are OC or punching them in the face. I'd rather hit them with the OC, which will probably take some of the starch out of their bloomers, and if they insist on pressing the issue then I'll punch them in the face. OC is painful but not generally permanently damaging. If I remember correctly, in most police UOF continuums it holds a lower place than "hard hands" like punches and kicks.

[ST911]

As a general rule, a use of OC is justifiable and reasonable when other physical control or defensive techniques would be as well. On the LE side, OC is pretty low on the force continuum in most places, typically soft empty hand control. That is a logical and reasonable standard for the citizen as well.

Like other force options, the point at which it become justifiable will vary somewhat with specific dynamics of the confrontation and specifics of the aggressor and victim. If there is a disparity of size, presence of disability, etc, the threshold comes down.

[Irish]

Thanks for the input guys.

[bkb0000]

up front: i have very little training- basically none- with less lethal. i was certified in OC through the Oregon DPSST, but that was basically just a few pointers, followed up by getting OC'd in the face.

my experience: i caught shoplifters for a major department store in college.. i know, i know, roll your eyes all you want- but i was pretty good at it, and was transfered to the most active store in the region because of that. we averaged 5 arrests a week, sometimes twice as many in a given week. at the store in question, probably fully half of our stops involved a struggle, if not a full-on fight. they were usually street kids, as we were located in down-town portland. the "professionals" i was used to from the west side didn't fight nearly as often nor as hard, as they knew from experience that we usually (always) won. but these street kids in downtown just wouldn't give up- they'd fight till exhaustion, and even pull weapons once in a while.

in all the time i did loss prevention, i never once used OC, nor found myself in a situation where it would have been useful. firstly, by the time OC might have been useful, you were already needing both hands to defend yourself. secondly, fights are, by default, extremely close contact- dousing him means dousing you and your partner too. thirdly, the few times i saw OC deployed with other LPs, the perp just continued to fight anyway. i'd say a few guys actually seemed to fight harder after being OC'd- adding pain and fury to the fight. and i don't think i ever saw it used without also zapping all the good guys. it's harder to fight when you're coughing and gagging on your own OC.

i didn't even carry it.. i don't even remember what happened to the canister i was issued.

anyway, that's my experience. take it for what its worth. if you're not an LEO that'll be getting H2H instruction involving effective OC deployment, your situation will probably be a lot like mine

[Irish]

in all the time i did loss prevention, i never once used OC, nor found myself in a situation where it would have been useful. firstly, by the time OC might have been useful, you were already needing both hands to defend yourself. secondly, fights are, by default, extremely close contact- dousing him means dousing you and your partner too. thirdly, the few times i saw OC deployed with other LPs, the perp just continued to fight anyway. i'd say a few guys actually seemed to fight harder after being OC'd- adding pain and fury to the fight. and i don't think i ever saw it used without also zapping all the good guys. it's harder to fight when you're coughing and gagging on your own OC.

These are some of my primary considerations... If they're walking up to you and get within 10 ft. and your Spidey sense goes off I'd say your odds of pulling and using it are slim to none.

[ra2bach]

my mantra has always been that if you CCW, you MUST also carry some form of LL. I've been called out on that numerous times and I have tempered that with you "should" always carry LL but I still remain wedded to the concept.

the old saw about "if all you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail", seems relevant and I really don't want to have to go to guns if all I'm facing is some loud mouth who thinks he deserves that parking spot more than me.

the problem is, if you CCW and you are forced to go hands-on, that immediately changes the dynamic from a potentially non-lethal situation into a lethal one where weapon discovery and retention determine the outcome. to me, LL is some form of chem spray. other LL, like yawara sticks, require you to already be hands-on and I consider that my hastily executed Oh Crap Plan B...

my reasoning is not having to do with escalation of force continuum or whatever the cool guys call it these days but more from a culpability standpoint. the papers are full these days of stories where almost anything might have been better than to poke a few holes in "my baby din' do nuffin", and have to deal with the legal/financial nightmare that follows.

I'm not advocating carrying LL instead of (though there are some times when tis is better than nothing) but rather in addition to CCW because I think it gives you options. I carry mine on my support side and prectice holster-ready with my CCW at the same time I present the LL.